Bitcoin Will Pass $200K | Max Keiser, The Keiser Report

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What is up everybody? I'm Scott malkinson. This is The Wolf of Wall Street's podcast. Today's guest has a voice and Persona built for the airwaves. Max Keiser an American broadcaster and filmmaker known for hosting the famous Keiser report Max's unabashedly. All in on bitcoin is not afraid to talk about to his millions of fans around the world. He's known for his hot takes humor and high Bitcoin IQ. So I can't wait to dive into this conversation. Find out what he's thinking about the current market, the potential of Bitcoin. And anything else. We managed to find our way into disgusting Max. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Yeah. Hey Scott. Thanks for having me on. I like the idea that I'm built for media. Yeah, maybe I am.

Yeah, I believe you've proven that by now. So let's, again, before we get into the question Julissa, The Wolf of Wall Street's podcast with chairs twice a week. I talked to your favorite personalities, the world's a Bitcoin Finance trading art music, Sports and politics. This podcast is powered by block works. You can visit block Works dot Co for access to the highest quality information in the space and you can check out everything else I have going on.

On, at The Wolf of Wall, Street's dot IO. Now, to get into today's episode Max, I have to ask you and, you know, it's coming. What the hell is going on with Elan

musk? Well, you know, you don't change Bitcoin, Bitcoin changes, you, and he's unwilling to be changed, right? So he's a narcissist, I guess you could say, and he likes to have everything.

About him and Bitcoin. Of course, is decentralized. There is no leader. And it's it, it seems to reject narcissist and we've seen a lot of narcissists fail. On the altar of Bitcoins yet seemed to lab Elon Musk Paul Krugman over at the New York Times. You know, the list goes on and on Mark Cuban to a large degree. So there they their egos and their narcissism prevent them from fully embracing.

Coin and they Embrace shit coins. You know, thinking that this will somehow be the way to go. And it's doesn't work.

Do you think that he's really embracing Dozier? Do you think that it's a joke to him?

Well I think that he he saw Michael sailor. My got my Michael sailor shirt on today. Awesome over there, at micro strategies, really redefine the corporate treasury in America and around the world and

The corporate treasury is all about and very articulately. Go on mainstream media and talk about money Printing and inflation. And the responsibility the CEO to their shareholders in terms of their cash reserves. And why buying back your own stock is probably a bad idea and why buying Bitcoin is an excellent idea. So he immediately became almost a Renaissance figure. And then there's Ilan, you know, who got a lot of attention for his Rockets.

And his cars and things and he got jealous and he's like, my God, this guy is stealing some of my Spotlight so how can I steal some of that back? So he goes into this little known joke. Coin meme coin and gets a lot of attention doing. It moves the price around a lot. And I think it's just a function again of his narcissism. I think he's Guided by his narcissism mostly is what, what guides I mean, he's obviously very smart in terms.

Of his technical prowess and his engineering skills, but it's very narrow intelligence. He doesn't have a broad base intelligence. He doesn't know anything about money or philosophy, anthropology sociology, technology in the broader sense history, right? He's he's a geek, you know? And a very, very specific type of geek, a self-admitted Asperger's sufferer. So he now that he's on the autism spectrum to some degree. So that brings some baggage to the conversation and

And so now he finds himself hated and a figure of intense hatred, not only from the Bitcoin Community. But even from the altcoin community I think is looking at him curiously. Corporate America doesn't really like this guy the stc's when after him for a long time because allegedly, he's been breaking a lot of laws and I liken him a bit to John McAfee, who is another technology guy who decided to get into shit coins. He's not sitting in a

And Spain, you know, is this, where Elon is going to end up, you know, if he keeps going away is going that's that's why he's going to end

up, but do we think that he's won by or one tweet? Again from going back from Zero to Hero? I mean, the guys made the trip from hero to zero and back more times than anyone, I can recount in this amount of time but, you know, one more Tesla announcement of buying Bitcoin and he'll be the hero of the community once again.

Now, I think he lost the community. I look at Jack mahler's. Who's one of the brightest? Newest Young

Just sharpest, guys out there with in strike and zap. And he wrote a very passionate thread on Twitter explaining why, he essentially he's out, you know, he's never coming back to Camp, Ilan, ever again, and he feels betrayed and he's, he thinks he called him out and did. So, in a way that unlike, some of us, myself included, you know what? We tend I can tend to become, you know, somewhat scatological in my tweets and, you know, not not terribly.

Articulate. But nevertheless what this Jack mahler's he was running a company and he wrote a brilliantly, a brilliant piece I think he speaks for a generation so I think Elon lost one or two generations. He lost the Millennials he lost the Gen Z's, they're not coming

Yeah, it does seem like a lot of people are pointing to SNL as sort of peak Elan, Elan musk. Like you could probably charge it like you, like you could Bitcoin that would be the blow-off top for him and I think that it's an apt apt apt comparison but also I do, you know, have my eyes open and think that he could come back with that least the mainstream or that part of the community pretty quickly if price went up ten thousand dollars because of another Tesla purchase like it did the first time

Yeah, I mean you can't rule it out but I just I don't, I've seen this before and the people who excuse me, the people who really disengage in acrimonious ways and they really don't really come back. I can't think of any examples, really gave it some thought I could think of an example, I can't think of anyone who's been missed overtly stupid and, and then work their way back. Really, I can't think of an example. I don't think he's going to be

Example either.

Yeah, it's a lab you mentioned before he called me an idiot recently, which I thought was a huge compliment and a badge of honor to be in that club. But he was a much more surprising turn I think because it seemed that his ethos and beliefs lined up exceptionally well for Bitcoin and he turned on a dime.

Yeah, once again, it's narcissism. So he is someone who's extremely confident in his intellectual abilities, who goes to Twitter and publicly dresses down other public intellectuals, and academics regularly and calls them idiots, and things like that, and publicly and considers himself to be really the intellectuals intellect, that he is really running the show. And again, you don't change.

Bitcoin changes. You if you're unwilling to change and a narcissist is unwilling to do so then you start to go down the path of having Bitcoin derangement syndrome where your inability to change warps you and you become a pariah in the community and a laughing stock. I mean he wrote the foreword to say 15 a Moose's book, the Bitcoin standard, and yet, he doesn't seem to really spend five minutes on the

Bitcoin at all. It doesn't really know anything about it. All the arguments from these people are always completely horrible, you know, one of the things Bitcoin suffers from is a lack of credible detractors, you know, we needs better critics, you know, these critics of Bitcoin are all horrible. They all Quote, the same Fudd from five, six, seven years ago. And, you know, that none of them make any any good credible points and they all, and they all kind of blow up some simultaneous. Similarly, in similar ways?

Yeah, it's always very clearly emotional when it

Happens. I mean, it's unbelievable. You look at Peter Schiff, right? You know who's been the greatest bottom signal effectively for every move on bitcoin that we've seen. Well, you know, as an actor I mean, at the bottom of the

crash. Yeah. You know he always says he says that Bitcoin is not a store of value, right? So what he's saying is that

Only, you know, Peter Schiff determines what the market should consider a store of value. Correct. Not the market, right? He's putting himself above the market. He says, I know the market is, is has determined that Bitcoin is a store value. But I, Peter Schiff have not determined that, it is a store of value. And therefore, I Peter Schiff, I'm now claiming the market is wrong. So, again, narcissism only, an

Assess would come out and publicly say that I'm smarter than the market. And so, he's been wrong since the dollar, he's been wrong for 10 years since I told him about it at $1, $10. $100 $1000. He's back with the exact same argument. I Peter Schiff, do not deem this worthy of my attention. And so as a result, he's underperformed Bitcoin by 99.9% for 10 years. Every single one of his clients has underperformed Bitcoin. They're all losing money priced and

Bitcoin. And that's it. He's got to be the worst money manager, the past decade, I can't think of a worse money manager with the worst numbers than Peter Schiff

God. And like you said, the the statement doesn't make much sense. If the numbers don't back it, I mean, we have, all right, data in the world to show who's been right and who's been wrong in the market, really does decide.

Well, it's amazing where somebody who claims to be a Libertarian. Would also claimed that the

The market in this case is wrong and that they are. Right. That's what you. That's what you hear from a statist. Yep. Somebody is a statist will say we don't believe price signals are correct. We don't believe Market signals are correct. We believe that the state is correct in our ability to control and manage and fix prices and rig prices is correct. So when it comes to bitcoin Peter, Schiff is a statist, he's essentially a Marxist, but then when he steps out of Bitcoin, he claims to be a Libertarian. So again, the one of the

Traits of a narcissist. Is this kind of moral flexibility? That suits the situation, whatever it is. There is no actual moral grounding. They has no principles, he has no ethics, he just whatever the situation is. However, he can assert that he is at the center of it. He'll, he'll pick and choose from whatever ideology is that needs to subscribe. Add credibility to his claim that only he knows what's going on. And as you point out, the numbers have shown that he's been dead wrong for 10 years.

But yet he keeps going down this path. So

it is amazingly fun to watch his son, attack him on Twitter. Exact, same things that that you're saying, but I guess we don't need to spend too much more time. But Peter Schiff, I'm curious, we talked about, obviously, the idea of a store of value. He obviously believes it's gold. We believe that. It's that it's Bitcoin. What do you, how do you respond to the arguments? That the volatility that we're seeing in the market as of now. I mean, people don't know when we're recording but it's down, you know.

Sent from the top today does volatility affect the argument that Bitcoin is a great store value.

I don't really look at the price. I'm or look more at the hash rate and the hash rate over the past 10 years has been in a very predictable, solid bull market and it just reached new all-time highs recently, and that's really the Nexus of the Bitcoin protocol price is not really, it's the least important data point on bitcoin, the important data points are ashtray.

Things difficulty, adjustment, the emission schedule, every 10 minutes, those are important data points. Price is only reflects on the dollar. Because if you're pricing Bitcoin and dollars you're making a comment on the dollar, not put coining one, Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin, that's never changed. But if you price $10 and you say, oh, you know, it's a reflection on the volatility of the u.s. dollar because unlike Fiat money or gold, Bitcoin is free to trade. So, it's trading and it

Showing volatility in the dollars so Bitcoin price down it we see dollar strength bitcoin price up. We see dollar weakness over the past 10 years. The u.s. dollar is in a hyperinflationary collapse against Bitcoin. They punctuated by the occasional strength in the dollar so whenever the dollar might go up on any given day and so priced and Bitcoin. You see the price down, but it does. But that's just a reflection on the dollar has nothing to do with Bitcoin. The the Bitcoins path is

Global Bitcoin. Adoption hyper. Bitcoin is a shippin market. Cap will be at 10 trillion, 20 trillion, 30 trillion, and that path is set. It's not going to. There's nothing that can derail it in any given dollar price on any given day, is the not really important.

You make a really interesting point, I've been on the side of the correlation debate as Bitcoin is a beautifully, uncorrelated asset, from all other asset classes and that's has

In a very popular opinion because occasionally stocks move and Bitcoin seems move with it and everybody obviously panics and says that we're just another Market but you did make the argument obviously that Bitcoin is inversely correlated to the dollar at times and that is what we see with metals and stocks to a greater degree as well. Do you think that Bitcoin is completely uncorrelated asset from these other asset classes in general? And that maybe that's temporary when we do see those movements or it's coincidental

How do you view Bitcoin with regard to those other assets,

right? I would say uncorrelated is generally what I think Bitcoins on a vector that it's on its own. It's a new asset class. It was the discovery of a new asset class back in the 2009 when it was first kind of dropped on on the web and the correlation or inverse correlation of the dollar I think is the only thing really that is interesting because you

Dollars World Reserve, currency and Bitcoin is competing to become World Reserve currency. So, the King right right now is the US dollar in Bitcoins attacking the king. So that's that's where those two come together and sometimes that that's the end result is Bitcoin replaces the dollar and replaces Fiat, money and replace the central banks. So that that's where it's going and but it is well on something that's compounding at a rate of two hundred percent a year for 10 years it's not correlated anything, right? You know, it's like,

Like there it says it's a vertical rocket going straight up, you know, and it's going to pass some clouds on the way. Then it'll pass the Mountaintop. It'll pass a star and will pass get it escaped, the Galaxy, it doesn't mean it's correlated any of those things. It's not it's own Vector. You know, it's heading on a vector out of this. Any, as Michael Sailors would say, all your models are broken, right there. There are no models suitable to evaluate Bitcoin.

I think it's absolutely true. You said that, you know, Bitcoin is attacking the

In being United States dollar. But we all know that it's not the only one attacking the king and you touched on central banks, we have Central Bank, digital currencies being developed worldwide especially in China. Who is unabashedly said, listen, we want the dollar not to be the reserve currency and are probably best shot at that. Is it digital you want? So, how do you think that those play into this sort of 3D chess now, instead of 2D chess of Bitcoin versus the dollar,

right? Well, the Central Bank, digital currencies are just Fiat money.

The centralized Fiat money, so they don't compete with Bitcoin. They compete with other Fiat money, centralized Fiat money. And what happens is, what will happen is that one major country will say, you know what, we're just going to add Bitcoin to our reserves, the same way microstrategy added Bitcoin to their balance sheet. One of the major countries central banks of the world will say, we're going to start adding short it coin and then it'll make all these. So you know, Central Bank digital currencies

Look even worse than they already. Look, it'll make Fiat money, look worse than it already looks, and it'll make gold look worse than it already looks. So that's that. That's, there's no threat from from Central Bank, digital currency because it's just centralized Fiat money, it's not different than currently what we have now. We have US Dollars mostly electronic, right? There's very little actual paper floating around, it's all. It's a central bank, digital currency, I invented a digital currency.

Back in 1996 that I got a US patent on 5950 176 and it's a virtual currency and it's a virtual trading system and it's also a virtual Securities and it was the first patented commercial prediction market. So I mean, I know this all industry, very, very well. And I can tell you that a central bank, digital currency is nothing as no no problems, no threat to

It's worse. I mean, it's a central bank's wet dream, right? It's complete and utter control of the money supply. So and made and if anything it should drive more people towards Bitcoin, I would

believe. Well there's going to be easier to do let's say mmt modern monetary Theory or you bi, right? So in the state's you already have basically Ubi people getting a monthly check from the government and they're not going to apply for jobs because they're getting twice the minimum wage by not working.

So that's Ubi so already on Ubi. So what? Okay, so now we know what happens when you do. You be, I owe you get inflation.

And so, in other words, for every dollar increase, you get in your Ubi, you're going to have to pay more than a dollar for that basket of goods at the grocery store. So now you're losing again, you're going to lose and lose and lose. You cannot print your way into having prosperity mean, if that was, so then Zimbabwe would be the richest country in the world or Venezuela would be incredibly rich but they're not. They're incredibly poor because they think they can print money to create.

Well, it doesn't work that way. Sorry.

Do you think that those countries are a preview of what could happen in the I guess? Quote-unquote first world when we finally see hyperinflation because in those places Bitcoin is actually being put to the test and winning, right? I mean you see hyperinflation and nobody really talks about it, but people are surviving because of Bitcoin and even some other, some other cryptocurrencies. But it's I mean it's changing people's lives on a daily basis who don't have access.

Other money.

Right? So as Paul Krugman at the New York Times says the dollar is backed by men with guns. So the Pentagon, these are the guns that back up the US dollar that eats up something like one and a half trillion dollars of our tax has approximately. 50% of all tax dollars goes to the people with the guns to back the dollar. So what happens is at some point with inflation kicking in, it's going to be impossible.

Print enough money to keep the Pentagon up and running. So now when you, when you don't have the guns to back your paper currency, you go into a hyperinflationary collapse and I think we're going to see that in the next year or two. The American Empire is just stretched too thin, you know, we got too many military bases in too many countries. We start too many wars and like it a lot of Empires before us. Whether it's the Roman Empire, or you can name a bunch of vampires, you know, it's really hard to maintain.

Maintain an Empire gets really expensive and then the value of your money depreciates and then your Empire collapses. So the u.s. Empire is set to collapse. It's probably good for the Millennials and gen Z because they get to rebuild the country in there. The way they want it and probably with a Bitcoin standard or should definitely be with the Bitcoin standard. So the Millennials will inherit the the country at some point with a, and using a Bitcoin

But you see a, you know, full on Mad, Max dystopian future. I haven't heard that many people say, hey, it's gonna happen in a year or two, you know, there's obviously a lot of arguments that it will it will live and breathe for much longer but what does the future look like when that happens and not everybody has Bitcoin.

Well, you already see it happening in some cities like Chicago. New York is becoming very violent. Once again, as when I was living in New York in the 70s we had 3,000.

Murders a year. And that was the high now. It's creeping up again, I think they're on track to maybe a thousand murders this year. And you have, of course, the city of San Francisco went into complete breakdown. Seattle, collapsed Lawless Mad Max world. You already have in some cities. So on the margins, it's already happening and you had ninety thousand. People died from opioid overdose last year. That's a death of

Are that is caused by money printing. That's right at the doorstep of the central bank that's j-pal. Janet Yellen effectively killed 90,000 people with their money printing last year and you know, they continue to print money, they're going to kill another hundred thousand five hundred thousand, where will it end? Where will the blood shed? And for the central banks? And what pie, what point do they do? They stop murdering Americans, a million two million. When's it going to end,

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Ation Airy World. Technology is deflation area at some point you know people are not going to have jobs no matter what happens and that they're trying to print their way out of that. But at this point what could a central bank do in your opinion to fix this?

Well, I wouldn't agree necessarily with that characterization. So the reason they're not printing money to overcome it deflation or a technological world. They're printing money to bail out Wall Street, and Wall Street, takes that money. That's given to them for free to speculate on me.

Our businesses and as those businesses blow up, they get bailed out some more that that's why they print money. If you had a Bitcoin standard, you would have a lot more individual sovereignty. You need to have a lot more organic GDP growth based on production and Manufacturing and genuine growth. So so

so that's that's not that they're not, they're not, they're not fulfilling, they're not solving a problem by money, by printing money, they're causing a problem by printing money and the out, there's only two ways forward as you as you point out. As we know what's happening right now, they're printing more money to keep bailing out. The banks that are stealing the money that they are printed. The only other option is to do what Paul volcker. Did back in the 70s and raise interest rates to 20%.

And it would force all the crooks like, Jamie dimon, and other Wall Street Banks would have to go bankrupt immediately, and then that would make room for new Banks, a new business opportunities and people who are not Crooks, you know, to come in and start businesses. So that's if we're going to live in a central bank world, then you need to actually use the tools of the Central Bank, the way that they were designed and right now.

And really for the last 15 years, the Central Bank should have been raising rates for 15 years now or until such time as you weed it out the Bad actors, you eat it out, the crooks you weeded out the the people the banking system that that was hoarding, the cash and not lending it out, we know that they weren't lending it out because if you look at the money velocity number, it's near zero. So the FED all the FED has to do is say, you know what, this money velocities is trying to zero, we need to raise rates to get rid of these Banks.

Are hoarding the cash and refusing to lend it out and that the okay, well protect the depositors but those banks have got to go of the got to go. You know, Jamie dimon is got to go these he's really a terrible terrible impediment to the America's future and then let creative destruction kick in. Let capitalism kick in let price Discovery. Kick in. Let's do it the way America is, does it. We don't want to do it the way Venezuela does it. We don't want to do it the way Argentina. Does it not? Not a nice, I

Stand it. I didn't know that that we were aspiring to be new Argentina, but it looks like that's what we're trying to do.

Yeah I guess the fear not of the Central Bank myself or any human is that that transition would be extremely painful but obviously necessary, you know, that that sort of allowing it to naturally happen. Sadly both directions. Now seem like there has to be a lot of pain more printing a lot of pain switching completely to that other environment. A lot of pain.

Yeah, it's painful one way. The other absolutely. I would agree with that. There is no I guess the conclusion here is that there is no pain, free right resolution and we're Beyond The Pale. In terms of there's a, there's a solution that is pragmatic and maybe a bit difficult but is going to end up with a Sounder economic footing that that's now no longer available.

The convexity issue in the bond market is now Beyond repair. In other words, any increase in interest rates by even one tenth of one percent would cause instant death to, you know, a large percentage of the economy. So there's no, there's no pain freeway where we're now going to have to face the music as Chuck Prince said, when he was at Citibank during the 2008 crisis, right? And in 2008 would have been a great time.

I'm actually under Barack Obama, Barack Obama could have instead of bailing out the creditors, he could have bailed out the debtors which is something that's been done for thousands of years, instead for the very uniquely, maybe the first time ever in a major crisis, he bailed out the creditors. The banks that fraudulently made those loans, he gave them, he made them whole and gave him ten times, more credit and then they went and did the exact same thing. So now we're living through the 2008 crisis, part 2, thanks to Barrack Obama to

Geithner. Eric Holder is attorney general. He said that banks are above the law. It's called the holder Doctrine. He said we can't prosecute Banks even though we find them guilty of fraud manipulation malfeasance, we cannot prosecute because there are systemically important to the system of the economy. Say that's American died in 2008 but we haven't buried it yet. I think in 2021, we may bury it but it's really Barak. Obama, killed America and Eric Holder, Tim Geithner had

Hank Paulson, Robert Rubin made wasn't as valve so much Larry Summers right? Those guys took America out back and put two two caps in the back of the head. Bang bang dead. Thanks guys. Now Millennials are going to have to rebuild it from scratch, it's going to be tough. Sure. But it'll be an adventure,

right? What gets me is that we always hear the age-old criticism of Bitcoin. They told me for criminals and drug dealers and money launderers.

Ring. And then the exact same banks are talking about have already been. I've already been caught doing billions of dollars worth of money laundering including JPMorgan not that long ago and they pay their fine and move along. So why would it even be a criticism of Bitcoin was used for money laundering if that's you know par for the course from the actual Banks?

Yeah I think the problem that banks have in terms of Bitcoin and money laundering is that it's not good for money laundering.

You know, the Bitcoin, if you look at all the criminal activity a year ago or so you could say Bitcoin was involved in something like 1.3 percent of it. And over the course of the Year dropped that number has dropped to less than three quarters of 1 percent because it's actually terrible to use Bitcoin and criminal activity because it's an open Ledger that's transparent that law enforcement can see exactly what's going on. So it's actually a bad. So I think when Jamie dimon criticizes Bitcoin he say,

And you know the problem I have Bitcoin is that I can't use it to perform all the criminal activity that is the basis for my Enterprise here at JP Morgan. That's why he doesn't like Bitcoin he much prefers a Fiat, money world and his cozy relationship with Regulators where he can keep ninety cents of every dollar he steals. That's what he's that's what he likes. If you if you want to challenge that system, he's going to not like it. He's not gonna like Bitcoin that that's what he's really

saying. He said, so let's assume that this hyperinflationary environment does come to pass in the

Two year to what can we do. As you know, people with a microphone in this market to make sure that as many people get and buy Bitcoin as possible before that happens,

right? Well the sad news is that a lot of people simply won't buy it and you know like the story of Noah and the Ark there they're going to drown but you know here's the thing Scott you know when you're in an airplane and there's a sudden problem, they always tell you when they are

Ask drops put it on your own face first. And then, if you have kids or whatever or try to help your kids. So when this thing collapses, you know, you have to make sure that you Scott and me, Max have enough Bitcoin. And then we may be in a position to help people without Bitcoin. But we're never going to be able to convince people without Bitcoin. You don't want to be convinced to get Bitcoin before before the problem and so we shouldn't really worry about that. We should just worry about getting Bitcoin ourselves and getting as much

Bitcoin as we possibly can. And then when it hits the fan you know then you're in a position to help somebody but if you if somebody who wasn't doesn't want help, there's nothing you can do it would be a waste of time and Bitcoin to get. Somebody should try to come to bitcoin if they're not ready for it now and they never will be ready for it before the dollar goes into a huge collapse. So just keep stacking SATs and then when the thing blows up, you'll be in a position to help somebody

Bill bar had made a very similar argument when I had him on the show from a bright.

They said, you know, it's going to obviously be the fortunate few that have it, but then there's going to be a natural trickle-down when they actually have to spend it and use it in that future where the dollar is

Yeah, yeah. I mean that's basically yeah that's basically saying the same thing and

Yeah, that's that's that's that's basically true. I don't, you know, people say that, you know, I'm looking at Big Twitter these days and they're like, oh you toxic maximalists are turning people off to bitcoin and you know it's it's not really the way to look at the situation. I think you have to that would be like saying there's there's there's somebody shows up and tells room full of folks that

A bomb in the other room and it's going to blow up in 20 seconds and we all need to get out right away. And there's somebody in the audience is saying why are you such a toxic anti bomb person? I'm not a toxic anti bomb person. I'm telling you. This thing is going to blow up and you need to leave right now. Why are you being so toxic? I haven't finished my chicken salad, right? I'm like go ahead. Okay, stay stay and this was nice knowing ya.

What's interesting is you

were way ahead of this. I mean, you know, there's a lot of I didn't start till 2016 so I'm by no stretch and oh gee I got it. I would say late. People had told him about me earlier what attracted you to Bitcoin in the first place. And what had you talking about these exact problems? A decade ago?

Right. Right, as I mentioned, I invented a digital currency 1996 and so in 1996 and through the end of that decade was, of course, the internet boom. And there were a few digital currencies that were emerging on the internet. The one I invented was one of them and so I was aware of a few things. Number number one, I was aware that a digital currency would could be wildly popular.

Because the one I invented was used on the Hollywood Stock Exchange in the Hollywood, Stock Exchange became within a year wildly popular was the most actively traded Exchange in the world. You know, we very quickly scaled-up got to had a half a million users or so which is pretty hard to do in the in that internet environment of that time that internet wasn't really as developed. And so I knew that people would have respond to a digital currency in exactly the same way, they would respond to any other currency. They

Thank you, take possession of it and your your psychology toward it is exactly the same the people and there's a lot of examples of gaming currencies like the Linden Dollar in Second Life. And I mean what if there is people who live in these environments and it's a game it was a gaming environment there. Their differentiation between the gaming environment in the non-gaming environment disappears, world of Witchcraft, of course. So I knew that that was the story and

I also was trying to bring the Hollywood dollar into the real world. You know, we maintained a fixed exchange rate of of a million to one and so people would come to the Hollywood Stock Exchange and they make a few million and then they could go to eBay and we would guarantee that we'd buy back their their dollars at a fixed rate of a million to one. So there was a crossing over into outside of the gaming world.

And so then when I was introduced to Bitcoin in 2011, I immediately saw that it could exist already outside of the gaming world, I mean, it could exist in the wild. It could, it could compete with that with the dollar and as such, you know, it could be huge. And so we started talking about it started buying it. I started investing in Bitcoin startups in 2013 so I really the first Bitcoin dedicated Venture Capital fund Heisenberg Capital. Then we started

In 2013 which is an actual fund. I know Roger ver says he made the first Venture Capital Investments which as an individual, I guess he did. But right around the same time we created a factual, VC funds called Heisenberg capital and we invested in bitpay and Kraken and shape-shift and bit so which is now just got a huge value. So Krakens worth probably 10-15 billion dollars now, I think initially is worth five million dollars and I

Worked on Wall Street for many years. So I knew the finance side of the business and it's also I recognized Bitcoin is a new asset class, so having been a Wall Street Professional for many years, you know, the, my first question was what is this? Is it a stock? Is it a bond? Is it a currency? Is it a commodity? And then I realized that it's really none of those and it's all of those. So it's a new, it's a brand new asset class. And then you look at the world of money management and the money management world is one where money man

Managers have a fiduciary responsibility to own assets and they have to own, for example, Pension funds have to own certain treasury bonds and they have to have certain yield instruments and and so as a fiduciary responsibility at some point there's going to be a requirement for institutions and corporations and endowments to own Bitcoin. So therefore the total

Addressable Market is a hundred trillion dollars. So at that time the total market cap of Bitcoin was 20 million so you're figuring while 20 million into a hundred trillion the the price can only go up from here. I would I would think so. That's started my

Makes sense. You talk about Pension funds obviously endowments. That's sort of the huge wall of money. You were thinking about it 10 years ago. I think they're on the cusp now of being here. Do you think that there will gain exposure to the underlying asset? They'll actually buy Bitcoin? Or do you think that the ETF will be the tool that they'll use for exposure?

Well, there's no reason why they can't on the Bitcoin underneath because you have not a lot of custodial services or you'll have insurance products, you'll have various ways