Optimal mental this altitude I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking and oils you a personal question. I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.
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Hello boys and girls, this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show. Where is my job to interview world-class performers and world-class experts have different types from all different fields. My guest today is dr. Brene brown. Dr. Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston where she holds the Huffington Foundation brene Brown and down chair at the graduate college of Social Work. She has spent the past two decades studying courage vulnerability shame and empathy and is the author of five count them five number one, New York Times bestsellers.
The gifts of imperfection daring greatly Rising strong braving the Wilderness and her latest book dare to lead which is the culmination of a seven-year study on courage and Leadership her Ted Talk. The power of vulnerability is one of the top five most viewed TED talks in the world with more than 35 million views let that sink and 35 million views my goodness. She is also the first researcher to have a film talk on Netflix the call to courage special debuted on the streaming service in April of 2019. She lives in Houston, Texas.
With her husband Steve, they have two children Ellen and Charlie. She also has a brand new podcast just in should be launching right about now called unlocking US coming out March 20 20, you can find it on a podcast Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts Brunei. Welcome back to the show.
I'm excited to be here. It's so good to see you have your
dicks. Thank you very much. Beautiful. Austin Tejas. Yeah, although you can't see much of it right now with the cloud cover, but
I wanted to start with two things that happen today. Okay, number one talking to my girlfriend this morning and she says oh, who are you interviewing today? And I say brene brown. She was gone. I love how casually you say that and then woman downstairs all mentioned by name who works in the building similar story similar reaction and I have met so many women who are otherwise very tightly composed Who start gushing?
At the mere mention of your name and what I would love to hear you comment on is what core do you think you have struck or what archetype are you providing that gets that response? Because it's not a common response. I know a lot of very successful or very famous women who do not elicit that kind of response from people. How do you explain that?
Now idea no idea. No idea. I don't know. Yeah. Do you know
I have perhaps a theory. I mean the only other person I've heard elicit similar responses is as the pro. So I love her have to imagine. She's great that has something to do with vulnerability. But is it just that I mean, what is the feedback that people give you?
Okay, so I do have a theory and I don't know. I don't know if this
I don't know if this is the driver of that reaction because it's still shocking to me like normally like if somebody if I walk up and someone goes I still like look behind me. Like what's happening like, you know are mostly I'm looking for danger because I'm wired but here's what my new theory is. My new theory is that it's not that people. I mean people I think appreciate the research. They appreciate the work, but I think what really connects to people
Kind of a cross-gender is what they really like is watching me struggle with my own work. Mmm. So rather than being someone that's like here's what we should all be doing. And I got it all figured out. I'm like this shit sucks like and if I didn't think we had to do it, I'd be like no way in hell am I doing this? And so I think it's a combination of giving people language for experiences that we all have and
then being really forthright about how much how hard it is for me and how much I hate it sometimes Jana me. I think I do watching the struggle
in the description of your new podcast. Yeah be launching shortly and is already dominating the charts of the preview. Congratulations. Okay. I'm excited one of the phrases that stuck out to me and I might butcher the slightly but it was something like the magic and messiness of
Relationships or The Human Condition but the magic and the messiness. So maybe what you're speaking to is not providing the Highlight Reel which I think is a common but Italy but also giving people the the low lights which are part of everyone's experience.
Yes. I'm like not a fan. It's like the ESPN play of the day. Yeah, like they're like five thousand six hundred ninety four pop flies missed, you know, it's like and you know, and then that means there's like the 300.
Is there in a shame shitstorm and you know and like to me that's much more interesting than the play of the day. Yeah. Yeah. I like to play the day. I watch the play of the day. I'm a big Sports person but
I don't often make the play of the day. Wow.
So yeah, which is which is precisely why when every once in a while, I'll talk to some one involves media. They're like can we Shadow you for a day and I'm like absolutely not now it's because it's 99% just like missing missing the pop ball and having hit me square in the face. That's 99% of the day and I'm like that's not going to make for compelling media
coverage now and I get asked that sometimes too and I'm just like well first of all know because like
Like okay. I'm making a lunch for school, you know for my kid going to school. I'm unloading the dishwasher, you know, like it's and yeah this goes into a whole different topic but I also have like there's a line like this is my life. Yeah, like the people I love can't follow me. Hmm. So it's strangers are definitely not following me. I don't like anybody enough.
How did you and I know we spoke about using a certain format for this conversation will get to those but I'm curious as someone who
as best I can tell was not trying to become famous you gave your Ted Talk that now has 35 Plus million views some of the top talks of all time. So it seems from the outside looking in that you were sort of thrust into becoming a public figure out. How did you navigate determining where to draw lines and boundaries?
Well, I don't know. I still a daily practice. I'm still drawing them every day, and I'm really
I see them every day, but I am so grateful that this didn't happen to me when I was younger.
because
I don't know. There's like this working theory that a friend of mine Jennifer shared with me that she said, I don't know that anyone who is trying primarily to be famous has anything interesting to say mmm and I think part and I think that's true. Like I I didn't want to be I don't know that I'm famous, but I didn't want to be a public person because I'm too self-conscious for that really to be honest with you like
And I'm I'm a tough person, but I get my feelings hurt. And so when people make fun of what I look like or what I say or if I use the wrong word or mispronounced something like you can it can take me down less than it used to be able to less than it did I guess but so I didn't really want the public part. So when that first started happening after the Ted Talk, I already had a team together because I was I want to get my skill my work. I wanted to get to as many people as I could with my work.
I just wanted to stand like down and push my work into the world and not be there's a lot of people whose workers in the world, but they don't we don't know who they are. But again going back to your first question. I don't think it's my work. I think it's me as a vessel for the work that resonates with people because I think I am it's like a terrible Paradox. It is a terrible Paradox as just
I'm having a moment like that. It's my ordinariness that makes me relatable and it's also my ordinariness that makes me where I take all the hits.
Hmm. Do you know Jan? Thank you. And I also think I mean I'm not going to I would over over drinks maybe debate the ordinariness, but I do understand what you're saying and and I think that in your displaying.
of your fully
Imperfect self which we all are in that ordinariness doing what you do and putting your work into the world as you have is extraordinary. And so I think that maybe a piece of why people connect and find it so inspiring right as opposed to seeing like a LeBron James whoever isn't going well. That's that guy is a mutant. Yeah, there is that that is a separate Planet. There's no there's no room for me to Aspire to emulate that because it's
Out Of Reach, does that make sense that
makes sense? Well, it totally makes
sense whereas when you are very vulnerable and discuss the struggle people go oh shit. That's how I feel. I didn't know people who do things like
Put work into the world in a TED Talk and this that and five best selling books and so on could also feel that way and do the work that they do.
Yeah. So yes, I definitely I definitely feel that way. I mean, I think I think the people who follow my work for a long time. We're kind of just growing up together and learning together. I mean when I started I didn't understand that I could be brave and Afraid at the same time and now I kind of live in that. I'm like, I'm I feel Brave right now because I'm with you here doing this, but I'm also afraid
And I'm like, I'm literally thinking how much longer can I hold in my stomach and talk to him and at some point I'm just going to have to like breathe I think about yeah. I'm like I shouldn't have worn the clingy like Rolling Stones shirt and a worn something like puffier so I could breathe like like I'm just a normal person. But but yeah, I'm just a normal. I am a really I think we're all kind of ordinary people I get to do extraordinary things.
Things but I think we're all Ordinary People but I think sometimes this world is tough because we shame and diminish ordinary. Hmm ordinary lives are small lives, you know ordinary moments are you know, we Chase extraordinary moments instead of like being grateful for ordinary moments until until hard shit happens. Yeah, and then in the face of really hard stuff illness death loss.
The only thing we're begging for is a normal moment. Like oh my God. Can I please have that ordinary moment back? You know, can I please hear this him come through the screen porch door. Can I please get a call from my mom or crazy tight? Like then we want the ordinary moments but in them with all the noise, it's about the extraordinary right now and I'll tell you a true story. I'm I'm debating right now, whether I should tell her not because it's so fresh, but I just had to do a photo shoot for the podcast like the image for apple and everyone.
To use and I was the photographer was great Randolph Ford and it was it was fine. It was at the hotel since he saw you here in Austin, which was really fun place to do a plus so each chick and I'm like uncomfortably like, you know doing that like how much how much how much is to toothy? You know that whole thing and I said, we'll come and look at the monitor their great and then I stepped around to look at the Monitor and it was such a shock.
To me because this was the thing playing in my mind like I'm 54. I know who I am. I really like who I am, but then I'm looking this Monitor and I'm like, oh my God because my training for 54 years has been why are you taking pictures and having all these fancy people here when you're not perfect looking like this is this is the realm of perfect people like models do this and stuff, you know, like,
But to see on these big screens with all these professional people against a white backdrop like me. I'm like, oh my God, this is this is not what we normally see in a photo shoot behind the scenes, right? And it was just this moment that I go such a metaphor for life. It's like I earned every single one of these F and wrinkles and stretch marks like and this is the body, you know that raise my kids and you know like but
That ordinary nests can almost be for those of us who haven't found a way to love it in ourselves repulsive. Hmm, you know, like the realness the realness like this is me. It's like when they were when they were doing the photos like get ready and photoshopping the photos. I was like, you know, make sure that you make that I look my age because I don't like that like shocked at all when I show up someplace and
they're like damn was at an old photo, you know, like it's true, but it's like but really grappling with
And I'm just going to say these things out loud.
Do you know where like because and maybe that's why people are like, oh thank God someone saying them out loud because they're normally relegated to our secret shame lives. Yeah, you know and we all have them.
Yeah. Oh for sure, right? Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you are that's a nod to put it this way but showcasing that when I mean, it's I think it's I think it's a bit provides a sigh of relief to a lot of people feel like they have to keep all these things relegated.
Or to do or feel like they have to divorce those parts of themselves in
some class. Yeah, and I think it's I think it's there is a divorcing. There's an orphan even I would say that you know of these parts of ourselves and it's not like, you know, it's weird too because people always say this is an interesting question. I should ask you this question fire away people always say, where is the line between mmm
Bracing and Perfection and vulnerability and kind of our humanity and striving for excellence Mmm Yeah, Jana mean and absolutely and I'm a striver like I'm at like, you know, like we're serious about yeah our brand and my work and attributions and I work out all the time and you know, you asked me to where we started we were checking like what do you have for breakfast? I'm like, I'm intermittent fasting.
I'm liked it. We just need 10 seconds.
Audio, what do you fantasize about doing for lunch and come on Kita bar?
So it's not like, you know, it's not like embracing. Your imperfection is giving up. Yeah, but what do you how do you answer that question? If I said Tim hmm, where's the line between being our best selves or striving for excellence and embracing Who We Are
Funny you should ask because we're recording this in January 2020 and I thought a lot about this on New Year's Eve and in the few days after the passing of the new year when I was going through notes and photographs and everything from the past year and I'm actually still doing that review. I mean, we're well through the midpoint of January and I'm still doing my last year review and one of the conversations
With my girlfriend with some of my best friend's was this topic exactly and I can tell you where I landed because I wanted to try to get the right phrasing for me of the question. So I talked about the line right like and there are a number of different versions of the question was how can you be self accepting without becoming complacent? Oh God, that's right. That's it. Like that was one right? That's great. That was one and then that's good. You know, how can you convert?
How can you be high-achieving without being self-flagellating yourself abusing and I thought about another good one. I thought about the line as you phrased it. I thought about the line and and I realized that I had trouble answering that question like where the line is. So the question that I started to ask myself which was informed by a book. I've been reading for the last month or so called Already Free which is written by a boulder based psychotherapist. Who also is a
Buddhist contemplative and he would be the first to say these two do not mesh. They're actually contradict each other in some ways, but you can make room for and use both so informed by this book, which is reading during the passing of the new year. I thought to myself maybe the question is how can I make room for both striving and Celtic self-acceptance? And so this might seem really
Colin boring but I just schedule blocks of time for both and practices for both. So for instance, there's a journal called the five-minute journal and part of that is what I'm grateful for three bullets what made today great three bullets and those are generally small things. Sometimes they're big things but I try to include at least one small thing so that I don't become myopically fixated on the extraordinary, right, right, and because I think
One of the risks of being heavily achievement focused is that you only give yourself a pat on the back when you've done something that is the equivalent of a homerun talk or a massive project launched or setting a world record some type in your mind and you can become really miserable that way so in my personal life driving and achievement being in gear 6 is and has been forever of the default, right?
I think that's a coping mechanism for a lot of things happen when I was younger, but nonetheless that is the default. So the self-acceptance is putting things in the calendar as practices that will ensure I take time for that because my experience is that if I don't put them in the calendar they just get squeezed out by everything else. How do you how do you think about it? Well,
I'm changing in real time because I love the make room for both, but I think the
Only place that I have come to around using my question about the line. Where's the line between complete I love that complacency and what you say complacency and self-acceptance complacency self-acceptance and complacency and for me, I always think where is the line between so I'll just take it to my to our organization and my role as a leader in that organization. We believe in excellence and beauty and all things.
And we are not jacking around like like if a fonts wrong, I will notice it. Hmm. So where is the line between excellence and beauty and all things and perfectionism that is paralyzing no work gets out. So there's always you know, where is the line between my perfectionism and my being my best self? I the only thing I've come to you so far that has been the shift for me between. It's a midlife shift. I think it's a midlife shift for everyone and it's taken me a good five years in midlife.
I will determine the line you will not determine the line for me. So I know I know that for me. It doesn't matter what I'm achieving are accomplishing if I'm not eating in a way that makes sense for me working out and sleeping that it doesn't matter. So like for whether you're saying boy you need to you know lose 30 pounds or
On the side where you like healthy at every you know, whatever. It doesn't matter. I don't care what you think on either side. What I think is I know I need to work out five days a week. I know that I need to eat this way. I know I need to write down what I'm eating I need because otherwise I'm in like I can be a stress carb person. So for me the day I the day I reclaimed that line as internally sat not externally set was a huge changer for me, but I do think I need
Need to make room for both. I I'm going to look into that like I it is very Buddhist. It is not the competition conflict
thing. Yeah, and what this author I'm blanking on his name, but we'll put it in the show notes what he uses as labels are on the on the western Psychotherapy side. He talks about the developmental view. So you look back at the the outdated strategies that have become patterns in your life that are no longer applicable or are being
used and then you take steps to sort of improve or change your behaviors and that would include your thought patterns and then the on the Buddhist side, I would just say if Buddhists as a word bothers you you can just on the awareness side, he would call it the fruitional view which is being effectively becoming in cultivating the ability to be okay with whatever is and so another aspect of this that I've been thinking about a lot is there is there
Is there different types of self-acceptance? I think this is really important. It's only something I've thought very closely about in the last handful of years because I spent most of my life hating myself a best tolerating myself for moments, but there's a lot of self-loathing driving performance and I for a long time viewed any type of self acceptance as complacency just self-acceptance equals complacency period yeah, and you need to be your own devil whipping yourself in the back.
You try harder what I've realized and this is informed by lot of reading. Of course is that there's there's there is complacent self-acceptance where you say everything I'm doing is just fine. I don't need to change anything and I shouldn't change
anything. I want to I need to stop there for a second you can edit it, but I'm a plaza. I need I'ma have to think there is such thing as
what and I can modify can modify but why don't you say what you just said? What I said is I do think there are multiple types of self-acceptance right and that let term self-acceptance could
We used to excuse complacency and the sense that you could say I am practicing self acceptance which means everything is great. Everything is as it should be lalala. I don't need to change anything, but then I'll just add one more piece. There's there is a self acceptance which says for instance as an example making this up like right this like right now I am nervous and I'm frustrated and I'm angry because a b and c is happening in my life, and we're doing this podcast and I'm bald now unlike in
Seven and oh my God, it might it's my head just a shiny cue ball on camera right now blah blah blah and I could accept all of those things as true because they are those are my experience and then for some of them I could resolve to take steps to improve upon those things. Right? So there's a situation I need to fix great. Let me go fix it because that's making me or agitating me in some way. So I think that there are there's a there's a self acceptance which is a macro. I don't need to change anything and then there's a self-acceptance.
Which is really just truthfully accepting whatever you're experiencing at the moment as what is happening as opposed to saying I don't want to feel angry. I don't feel angry and like fighting and fighting and fighting and tugging yourself in multiple directions. So that might sound kind of esoteric but for me, it's been very profound in that you can be forgiving of whatever you are experiencing in your body in your psyche in the moment while still putting
In place steps to improve whatever it is. You're hoping to improve right? I think it's possible to do both.
I think it's I think it's possible to do both to for sure. I do because I think I live both and I do I go back to like the union belief that the Paradox is the only real thing that is has enough tension to capture Human Experience. So I think you can have self love and self-acceptance and want to be better in other in ways, I think
In fact, I don't think you can change without. Okay. So here are the paired here are the things I want to unwind I don't think you can truly change for the better in a lasting meaningful way unless it is driven by self-acceptance. I agree with that. So I think being a shit out of yourself for performance which you know, I work with a lot of sports people now like it works and if all you have to do is pay someone for one season are all you do is one game or one whatever you're okay, but
Lasting meaningful change has to be driven by self-acceptance. Yeah, the other thing that is just so shocking to me about complacency and self-acceptance is as I think back and I would really have to go into the data but just sitting here, I don't think I have ever come across a single person who I that not a single person that I can think of who was complacent driven by self-acceptance like I don't
Don't think I don't know. I don't know that that is not an act oxymoron. I got to tell you that like self-aware complacency doesn't work for me as a
constructs self-aware know I don't
myself accepted complacency. Yeah, I don't know that I believe that.
Yeah. I mean, I'll push all push a little bit. I think you're going to get by the look on your face. Yeah, I would say I would not and I think that I'm struggling for the right terminology.
But I think we all know people who are alcoholics various issues and they are in denial of having problems.
Yes. Let me stop you there. Yeah and say that is neither self-awareness nor self-acceptance
definitely not self
awareness self acceptance either. Well, I would
and maybe there's a better word but I would just say that there are people who are delusional to the extent that they either believe they don't have a problem that
they have or they have a problem and refuse to accept it as a problem. I think for sure, right so so it and we can go a lot of directions for this but I would say that I think we can agree there are complacent people and there are complacent people and among those complacent people. I think there are those who hate themselves. There are those who sort of love themselves and are narcissistic and I know a number of these
And then there's a lot in between and I think that you there are complacent in some respects complacent narcissists who almost by definition being a narcissist love themselves. So is that self-acceptance? Maybe? Yes, maybe no I would say that it is but it's a disabling self-acceptance. Whereas to your point about lasting behavioral change. I think that at least psychologically if you are
Divorcing parts of yourself. If you hate parts of yourself aspects of yourself that have been informed by your history that and I'm borrowing this phrase from somewhere else. But like what you resist persists right and that in that you are going to carry that unproductive and in some ways self-defeating tension within you even if someone is forcing you to change your behavior or incentivizing you to change your external Behavior, right?
And so even if technically you're changing a behavior, if you if you carry self-loathing even partial self-loathing with you hating an aspect of yourself or certain emotion within yourself. I view that as a loss a great. Yeah. So this is this is getting out there a bit. But this this is this is the type of stuff that you know, sometimes I worry that I lose that I've lost my audience connect make a confession. Yeah, because for a long time I think about writing a blog post about this but for a
Very long time if you look at all the books that I've written. It's like book on entrepreneurship book on physical performance book on cognitive performance and learning the 4-Hour Chef, etc. Etc. It's mostly developmental. It's about improving performance in one or more areas. And now what I've spent more and more time on like we're spending time on right now is the inner game for sure and the importance of developing a keen level of self-awareness so that you
Can examine the contents of your this is going to get super woo for second. We're going to step through the contents of your Consciousness. Right? Like wherever you go, you're carrying your mind with you. And so to develop a familiarity with that I think is the Crux skill that underlies everything else and you and I both know plenty of achievers who are miserable who are fresh are high performing. Well known people who are utterly miserable and to me the question of
Is that how can that be? The case is the question that I'm extremely interested in these days and but I worried that having built an audience who is largely. If not entirely kind of go go go. Rah, rah win-win-win there's nothing wrong with that but people who are trying to develop skills and competitive advantages and so on that that I may lose a large portion of those people.
Oil in shifting into talking about more of these things. We'll see where it goes but that's something that is occurred to me and I think I'm willing to make that trade. I think I'm willing to take that if that's a cost of doing business. I don't know I
so a couple of things one the go go go audience that you've built you this may scare them but I mean as someone who works with Elite athletes in professional folks and CEOs, and those things what I can tell you is this is the hardest challenge.
You've issued hmm
like and it's not about the conceptual complexity of what we're talking about. It's about unlocking performance is one thing unlocking people. Yeah way harder way scarier and unlocking ourselves and creating self-awareness to me it can me you would be remiss not to go here because you know, I don't know I think
like something you said when you were talking about we all know a lot of narcissists and they love themselves, but that's actually not true. Do you know that narcissism is the most shame-based of all the personality disorders narcissism is not about self-love at all. It's about grandiosity driven by high performance and self-hatred.
It's you know, I Define it as the shame-based fear of being ordinary. And so you have to me you have this audience that and I'm one of them. I mean like and I'm probably an outlier I guess in your it's like maybe in a rush fan like there's always outliers but audiences like
40 40 to 50% female, but I appreciate it. Yeah, it is it's shifted a lot in the last handful of
years. Yeah, but I think you know when I get invited
And by a Fortune 50 CEO and you know and he or she says look we need help we need help with the team. We need they're not asking me to help with time productivity, right? They're not helping me to set up a scrum or agile process for software development. They're saying, you know, we're at each other's throats. We hate each other. It's a shame based finger-pointing like it's all about self awareness and changing those behaviors and to me, you know to me the hard thing about this.
This area and your work is a lot of what I've learned from you that has changed. My life has been not only Effectiveness base, but efficiency based and so where you can lose people with this conversation is this is not an efficient process. Yeah, right Jenna mean there's no I don't think there's a for our self-awareness. It's like I've no plans to write that. Yeah, but I mean, but I can but people would love it if you could if you could unlock that fast, but to me
This is the Capstone conversation for you. Yeah, Jenna mean like I do because what's it all in for? Yeah, you know like a bit I'm winning. I'm smart. I'm successful and I'm on my third marriage and I don't speak to any of my children. Yeah,
like what you see a lot or I mean not I see all the time. Yeah,
right because I'm going to tell you not to dismiss the importance of that work.
If that's easier,
yeah. Yeah. It is
easier. It is easier, you know, because the thing about these conversations that you and I end up having every time we sit down as a second time, but both times we sat down is what differentiates us is a social species is the need to be seen and known and loved and the need to see and know and love others and no one rides.
For free like we all come into this adulthood with hard stuff and what I would say is true about complacency and 95% of what I see that people call pathology is its armor.
Yeah.
It's not its armor. It's how it's behaviors and ways of thinking that I've developed.
It to protect myself from being hurt.
So I've a question. Okay about that. It's gonna reach in this so you're good. You're good. So my question related to armor is
I'll get you through a segue, which is a quote that I want to say, Tara Brach.
The well-known meditation teacher also writer radical acceptance is a fantastic book shared with me, which I'm going to paraphrase and it's along the lines of you know, a great Sage once said there's only one real question that matters in that is what are you unwilling to feel I've thought about that a lot and not to say I have any concise answers to that but I think it's I think it's I think it's an anecdote really worth meditating on I've thought about it. What do you say?
A to the people you meet here on the third marriage their kids don't talk to them and there are certain things that they have convinced themselves subconsciously or otherwise, maybe through an abusive upbringing or trauma, whatever it might be that it is unsafe to feel certain things and you come in they've asked for help, but they do not want to open Pandora's box, right? They do not want someone to drag them into the deep Waters.
Of emotions that they've kept under lock and key for so long. How do you help someone like that? What do you suggest to them? Because it does get messy. It's going to get messy before it gets clean right at least in my experience. It's like you oh, you're gonna do spring cleaning. Guess what? You got to take all the things are up on the up on the shelves all the things in the drawers all the things that are hanging on coat hangers and you're gonna put them in the middle of the room and it's going to be a mess. It's going to be a fucking mess.
It'll be pissed that you did it
happen and that is but you can't really get
Past go without that type of Step. So for someone who's listening to this and says, you know what I buy it like I get it and yet what do I do? Because I've been I've had on this armor for so long.
So I would say a couple of things. I mean the first thing I always feel like is really important to say is that I'm a researcher and so I'm not a therapist that would be differentiate me when Esther like I don't see clients if I go in and I'm working with CEOs and this question comes up all the time. What I would say to people is Pandora's Box is closed.
Right now but are you under the impression they were living outside of the box or in the box?
Like yeah, I like
that. Yeah me like you don't want to open Pandora's Box because that's strange to me because you're living inside Pandora's Box and what I feel like you've asked me to come here to open it up. Like we're not going to do this process without walking through some deep shit with there's going to be deep Swift water. And if the water is super deep and Swift you need to go through that with a therapist and get that that settle before we work in the organizational way.
It what I would say to people what I always say is is the same for me and I'm sure the same for you that we all grew up and experienced it very varying degrees trauma disappointment how you know hard staff we armored up and at some point that armor no longer serves us and so what I think I would say to that person is how is not talking about this serving you like. I've been over 23 years.
So someone in a would be like, how's that shit working for you? You know like but I probably would put a softer spend on it. Then that over black coffee and a cigarette butt. Yeah, but I would say that it's not serving any more. Hmm. And now the weight of the Armour is too heavy and it's not protecting you it's keeping you from being seen and known by others. And so this is I mean just how you quintessentially this is the development.
Milestone of midlife from late 30s to you know through probably your 60s. This is the question. Hmm. Yeah. This is when the universe comes down and puts her hands on your shoulders and pulls you close and Whispers In Your Ear. I'm not fucking around you're halfway to dead. Hmm. The armor is keeping you from growing into the gifts. I've given you that is not without penalty time is up. Hmm. So this is what you see happen to people in midlife.
And it's not a crisis. It's a slow brutal unraveling and this is where everything that we thought protected us keeps us from being the partners the parents that professionals the people that we want to be and there are only I've only seen this is a fork in the road. I've only seen two responses to this visit from the universe. Well, there's a I guess there's there was my response which I was like screw you bring it like you think you can do you think you can best?
Me and then it was just one nightmare situation after another until you're not going to win that fight. I think if you say you know what I'm not I'm not going to do it. Then you've got to double down. These are the people that walk through the world double down on their own shit and denial, you know cheek squeezed as they walk and caused so much pain in the world. Yeah
to themselves as well.
I mean, yes because
It is so much easier to offload pain then to feel pain. Yeah, and so you really have a choice in midlife whether you're going to be you're going to you know, identify the first step of it. The whole process is what armor and I'm not saying like I'm not saying just pull off all the armor and streaked through Austin because I think you can't replace the armor with something. I think it's curiosity.
City is what you replace that. You just become very curious about yourself about the world. Why did I react that way when Tim asked me that question. I wanted to like hit him over the head with a topo Chico bottle, you know, what was going on there, you know, I mean, like what is my obsession about this? You just become very curious is curiosity is really the superpower for the second half of our Lives because it keeps us learning. It keeps us asking questions and
It increases our self-awareness but when you see and I think it's really hard because you know, I'll walk into a situation and they'll be the person who invited me is usually the CEO and then you'll have like the cross-armed pissed off clinched cheek. Like f you look in person usually in operations or technology, you know, and then they're like What's the business case for you being here? Yeah, right like because you know, here's our stock price. Here's what's going on. Here's our valuation like
What do you need and then you know the CEO usually say fucking hate each other and this can only last for so long like, you know, it's the end of every great band right like this is going to come to an end and it's going to be terrible. And so I don't know I think you can't pull it all off at once you have to there's trouble for a lot of people for all of us. There's trauma. Yeah, and people are like, no there's not trauma for all of us. There's trauma for you know people who had been abused physically
Ali sexually emotionally there's trauma for people of color and people who have been on the margins their trauma for all of us. It's just different levels of trauma. Yeah, you know, I mean to escape childhood with nothing is I haven't met that person
yet. No, I haven't
either right so the trauma staff literally the trauma message in our body is you take this armor off we die. So you protect us at all costs and leave this on a lot of that work has to be done with it.
Best
yeah, yeah, there's some really good books been there. A lot of terrible books on this type of topic, but the the thing is the body knows the score the body keeps the score by stove and a car. Yeah. Yeah Bessel vendor, probably it is very interesting in terms of tying the physiology and somatic experience into these past emotional experiences and what you were saying about Pandora's box and the question which I liked.
Do you think you're living outside of Pandora's box or use locked inside? Pandora's Box is is is really insightful question and also reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine has had a very who had a very very tough time multiple divorces fortunately on good terms with his kids but a lot of interpersonal strife and he said what no doubt you've heard a lot which is like, I'm just not sure.
Want to go there? I'm not sure. I'm ready to sort of open that not sure I'm ready to deal with it. And what what occurred to me as I was listening because I experienced this for a long time and is oh you're dealing with
it that damn weather dealing with your
choice is do you want to deal with it head-on in the sunlight or do you want to have have it come oozing out of the corners in the darkness where you can't contend with it in a direct or systematic way.
So you're dealing with it? No matter what the question is. How are you dealing with it
and great young and saying keep your shadows in front of you. They can only take you down from
behind. Oh, I like that. I like that.
Yeah, you're dealing with it. Like like here's the thing emotion and cognition undefined and unexplored drive every decision you make I mean you either develop self-awareness are these things?
Control you I mean it's but it's really I have to say that it can as someone who chooses effect or affect words carefully. It can be terrifying for people. Yeah, but rarely does anyone around them who knows them like you with your friend say, oh my God, I'm shocked to hear this when the reveal comes out. Yeah, you're like your whole life has been defined by
this. Yeah, and I would I would also like to say and this is
This is just been my experience and my experience observing a pretty decent-sized group of close friends who have had this realization in the last say 10 years that the process of becoming curious about your subconscious programming and the old scripts and the armor can feel messy and it probably will be messy and it'll feel terrifying but not all changes need to.
To take 20 or 30 years like some changes can in my personal experience. At least you had some terrible things happen to me as a kid and in the last say five years with the right tools and the right prompts and the right books and the right accountability Partners, like my girlfriend who's a very well-developed empath and a very clean fighter, which is really important huge huge sand one thing that she does really well that has been instrumental for me. She's been the
First mirror maybe I've ever had in the sense that I have my stuff. She has her stuff. I have my scripts in my sensitivities many of which are out of date and we set time to do what we call batching. So rather than having lots of interspersed criticisms or constructive pieces of feedback that may not be taken the best way by me especially at 3:00 p.m. On a weekday.
We'll set time aside to sit down and we will take turns and this is a format that it may not be the best format, but it's something we came up with that works for us where we'll tell the other person what they're doing. Well, like what they're really doing. Well what we think we are doing well and then we'll ask for what we would like more of and in that format. You can start to spot patterns, right? And so if you do that
At once a week or every two weeks certain things come up. I'm like, oh, well, the first time you said that I thought it was just an exception. But now I realize that is a pattern that I have when X y&z happens. I got like let's talk about it later don't deal with it now and I sort of shove off certain types of topics or questions and then you can being a you can begin to experiment with working on Alternatives. And the reason I'm saying all this
it's just because I don't want people to feel like the curiosity if you're willing to take that first step about your patterns your programming these added a strategies is an armor does not necessarily lead to you trying to run an ultramarathon with a blindfold on like there are there are actually tools and resources and books and methods that can be really really really helpful in short order
he and and you'll be surprised. I mean, it's really like it's like putting off the
Mammogram are you know the prostate check or whatever it is that you have to do putting it off putting off all the shit you make up about it all the scary stories. You collect as many horrible things as you can and then you go and you're like, wow the fear leading up to this was so much greater so much. Well, I mean, I'm not saying if I can hurt it's gonna hurt but I do think I mean the two hacks that we have Steve and I have been together for 32 years dated off and on for seven years and married for whatever the Delta is there 25 or whatever married now.
Hardest thing I've ever done.
Hands down hardest thing I've ever done. Y'all hear me out there artist thing. He and I both come from our parents marriage is on both sides divorced remarried several times. It shows we had no idea what it was supposed to look like right. We just were willing to keep showing up and the conversations like you and your girlfriend. Have we do that too? It's uncanny how similar those yeah. Yeah, especially what we want more of what's
Really working. I really appreciated this this week. We try not to.
If it unless it needs to be done in real time will usually wait until we're in a good place to do it, you know, and and and I don't know I don't think that he saw dirty fighting but all I saw was dirty fighting I'm like, yeah, you know, shame humiliation put-downs, you know stuff that leaves marks stuff that you can type. I and I and I can default there when I'm in like a powerless corner. I can come out like
mean it's hard to believe but no, it's really not. I know throwing elbows and head
but yeah, no for sure. I can come out and verbal ones.
That really are way more serious than a physical head. But yeah, the other the other two hacks that I think have saved our marriage besides just showing up and kind of using some of these things like what's working. What was hard is the 80/20. So everyone says marriage should be 50/50. It's a biggest crock of bull shit I've ever heard. It's never 50/50. Yeah ever and so what we do is we quantify where we are. So if Steve comes home and he'll be like I got 20
Just in terms of energy Just
Energy investment kindness patience. I'm not a guy 20 and I'll be like I'll cover you. I got you brother. Like like I'll pull the 80. Sometimes we come home which we have done a lot. My mom has been sick and I'll say I've got 10 and Steve OTS you like two days ago said I'm riding a solid 25 so we know that we have to sit down at the table anytime we have less than a hundred combined and figure out a plan.
And of kindness toward each other love that. Yeah, because the thing is marriage is not something that's 50/50 a partnership works when you can carry their 20 are they can carry your 20 and that when you both just have 20 you have a plan where you don't hurt each
other. Yeah. It's the your threadbare,
right? Yeah. And and so so what we'll say is I'm like, I've got 10 and he'll be like I got maybe 25 well, like put all the groceries that are supposed to be great and healthy in the freezer. We're ordering out.
Get the housekeeper here an extra day and we're canceling anything with people that we really actually don't
like so how can we create some buffer in
the system? We do that so like and then, you know, then we'll like a day or two later. I'm like, he'll be like I'm riding a 60. I'm like, oh my God work is kicking my ass. I'm still at a 20s like I got you but we're a spare 20. So, you know, it was a strongly if he wants to skip water polo practice today and let's all turn in at 8 o'clock. Hmm, like huge. The other thing I would say to that now I'm thinking about that is we made a determination?
Very early, there's kid Focus families parent Focus families and family-focused families. We're a family Focus family. So that means that if you want to do water polo Eagle Scouts tennis and skeet shooting and then that comes to the family and the family agrees. What will keep the family healthy like we can we you know, I've got a book launch. I've got this Steve's got patients. He's taking on others, you know.
He's a pediatrician he's doing this. So what works for our family right now is you can do to extracurriculars and I'm going to have a two-week tour not a four-week tour, but we put the family as the system that we serve. It's not the kids at the parents cost or the parents of the kids cost. It's the family and it is
It is remarkable.
How do you weigh if you do it all the voting system, so to speak Rance if you all come to the table does everyone have equal vote in the decision-making process with respect. No.
No, this is a dictatorship. Yeah. Yeah, but we don't even bullshit around that. It's like one of my kids like if I say like, oh shit. My kids are like, oh you can't say that. I'm like anything I want.
You can't say that and when you're old enough you can do whatever you want when you get your cursing like yeah you but right now I can totally do that watch me but it's so we have very we talk to our kids about everything. We're super open Steve and I both have veto power and we rarely use it. I bet I've been I pulled out my veto card. Once in the last five years
Vito meaning kid says I want to do X and you say I can't do or Steve or stiff?
Yeah. I'm like I have to veto that.
I cannot do that and then we really respect the veto because we don't overuse it. So our thing with our kids this is my theory on parenting my theory and parenting is the best we can do is a loving course from compliance to commitment that your kids need to do what you're asking them to do out of compliance and don't run into the street. Don't do this. That's that's you know, you're not allowed to watch that kind of TV. You're not allowed to play that kind of video game.
You need to comply. Otherwise, it's just some natural consequences at some point. I've got a 14 year old now. He's at other people's house doing video. Right? And so if all I teach him is compliance and don't give him the why about why you can't do that. If I don't say, yes every time I can and explain the nose then when he's there and I can tell you that like we got a call from a parent maybe a month ago and said the boys were having a sleepover. They wanted to watch on those some are rated violent thing and Charlie said can we watch something?
Else, you know, my parents are not cool with this and he could even have to do that. Yeah, but he's moved to a commitment to our family values because we say yes, every time we can we don't do any of that stuff that my parents did because I said no we explain so in the voting process will sit down and say Here's the fall semester Charlie's like I've got guitar I've got this I've got this and I've got this and I'd really love to do this and Steve's got here's what my fault looks like, you know, we still keep time and semesters.
Here's what my time looks like we're going to be able to do to curriculars you can choose. Hmm.
Why not? A lot of my friends are doing those five totally understand different families have different ways of operating and it was like my daughter when she went to high school. She's a junior now in college, but we sat down with her and said the number of AP courses that you'll take will be limited by you are time. You won't go to bed past ten. You will not miss a single dance. You will do something every weekend with friends.
We will not participate in the race to Nowhere like you don't need to graduate with Voight and she's a super academic head. She's like what you know and like she's like, but I need to take this and then you take this and like it's not going to work that way and then when she got to college, we're like we're not paying for it. If you are, you know what you want to be you're 18.
So what does that say more? I'd like to hear more on this it does that mean that you wanted her too. Well actually not even going to speculate. So could you elaborate on
that take every class that's interesting to you. Mmm learn who you are because if I had a dollar for every interview I did with a late 20s early thirty-year-old that got on the engineer lawyer doctor path because that was the
Leaving escalator for smart people who is depressed hated what they did never even knew that you could be a shoe designer or casting director or a microphone Builder.
If I had a dollar for every one of those like set for life set for life. Yeah, and I said you need to explore but you know, she's like this so cringy mom is so so cringy like everyone that freshman orientation knows exactly what they're going to be where they're going to go to grad school. I'm like, that's great. That's not the way we work. Yeah, so, you know kind of like, what are you taking? She's like taking a class on Black Power movements Germany in the 20th century.
Statistics in multivariate analysis and like wait, I think granted that spells graduate school. But yeah, she's like as it turns out. I don't think I want to do this and I don't want to do that and I'm like super valuable and she's like no, are you sure it's as valuable as knowing what you do want to do and like oh, yeah. Yeah knowing what you don't want to do you get to save all the part in your 30s and 40s where you hate work you're drinking heavily, you know.
You get to save a lot of that like figure it out. Nothing's wasted. Yeah. Yeah graduate from college when I was 29 as I go see the world get a job wait tables everyone I know is better at who's waited tables a human better human being. Yeah.
Yeah, I think everybody everyone should have to work at least one preferably to service jobs. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, you really learn a
lot? Yes. Yes. I mean like that and like that's what's always tellin you get one job where you're serving the
public and you got to ever do not ever date a guy who's a dick to a waiter. Yeah. Yeah,
so I'm going to suggest we could talk for hours and hours and hours because I know we have a finite amount of time today that we we switch to the the format that what was anticipated. Yes and did this previously with my friend. Dr. Peter Tia and it was it was fun. So I want to try it again and it is talking about
Things you're excited about. Yeah, we're thinking about things you've changed your mind on and then silly absurd stupid anything that you love. Okay doing and
I got my homework. I'm so glad we're going to do this because I did I prepped. I know, you know, I like my gold star and I somewhere person that I got
my gold stars in my wallet. And so why don't we start and we'll go one from each bucket.
Really? Is that okay, or we could do the other way. How would you like to do it?
Oh, no, I want to do it
batched. You want a bachelor? Yeah. Okay. Let's patch it
is that me like being like a starving myself into your process? I'm all for it. Okay, great. I'm good at FR for what I need.
Would you like to
start? Oh, okay, Tim. Let's take five things. I've changed my mind about. Okay in the last few
years. Wonderful. Let's do it.
Okay, and this is like a rapid-fire
you can you can take as much or as little time on it as you'd like. I live all will probably ask
All questions, but far away
five things have changed my mind about in the last few years further faster. Okay, it was always my motto. How can we go further faster how we can go further faster and then investors started coming about five years ago and saying can we invest in your business? I'm like, you know, we were thought leader. Like what does that look like and I'm like, no, I don't want to do that. So we kind of self-funded learning platforms and ways to scale the business further faster. I've learned through painstaking weirdly. Have you ever heard this painstaking success?
Mmm, I haven't like I'm the only person that like shut down businesses that were doing really well because I hated it. Yeah, like so what I've done one thing I've changed my mind about is I'm a slower closer kind of a person. Hmm. I'm not a further faster person. So we've changed our Jim Collins hedgehog to scaling our own work to creating world-class research and content and partnering with people who scale as opposed to scaling. Like I just like we are hiring all these people and getting new desks and I was like, what's happening? What's Happening Here?
That's like scale the magic word. Yeah, I'm not a further faster person the further faster I go the crazier I get and the slower closer. I am to my real life and grocery shopping and unloading the dishwasher and loving on people the better. I am so I'm a little closer person. Dang it number two.
Sobriety is a superpower.
Hmm.
Yes, I thought it was like a I never thought I was a pain in the ass. To be honest with you. I have never missed drinking. No I missed drinking five or six times in the 23 years. I've been sober. Hmm, and I can't explain to you except it's when my anxiety which I can struggle with is so high that I feel like the only thing that will put it out is something that I
Be using hmm So and I've never wanted a drink when I'm in my food Zone
when you're in your food
Zone. Yeah, so my food zone is pretty like my normal and I text you about this all the time. So I want your advice but my food zone is my food Zone not because it's a thing but because it's my food zone is kind of Quito e, yeah. Yeah. So like I'm probably insulin-resistant from a lot of yo-yo dieting my
Whole life and so just that kind of macro of kind of high fat moderate protein low carb is my jam and I just feel good. So I think of my Kido prick and it's binary which I learned from you. It's like when I texted you, like should I go slow carb or what do you think about this and you're like the thing about keto that you need to be careful about is the binary nature of it. You're on it are
often. Yeah, you're either in ketosis or
you're right and so for me that helps me with my with kind.
Food addiction staff. Hmm because I'm not am not an abstainer. I'm not a moderator. Yeah. I mean,
I totally understand awesome. I'm very binary. Yeah,
and so for me, it's great. I just don't eat that stuff. It's not like I negotiate the breadbasket. I just don't eat the Bread Basket and in the big book they talk about when you work a
program he described for people with the big book is because I had never even heard this term until yesterday. Really? Yeah
alcoholics anonymous big book and I'm not a big I worked at a for the first year and the last 22 years. I
Work my own program. It's like got components of a but it's also got some Buddhist stuff in it and some kind of daily examine Catholic stuff and my own thing. I want my own program with some like serious accountability Partners like but in the a a big book, they write one of the promises of sobriety if you stay in fit spiritual condition and do your work is the problem is the gift of neutrality where you're neither running as fast as you can away from the booze or the food Nora.
Running away is not running for it or away from it. It's neutral and so for me like the Bread Basket now is neutral the wine, but my sobriety is really a super power. I would attribute including my marriage. And in fact, I'm proud of how I've raised my kids and my career to the fact that I'm sober that when shit gets hard I stay in it. Yeah, I mean as opposed to trying
to numb at all learn. Um,
yeah work it out work it out work out it out.
Drink it out, eat it out. So I really changed my mind of looking at it from an albatross to it's kind of a superpower. Yeah, I like that bangs. I just got bang. You're so cute. You got a really big curtain
bang. Just thanks. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get implants just bang. I'd just forehead.
What about the Three
Stooges? I changed my mind about bangs. Usually I only got bangs in my 20s after I broke up some asshole. So I would be like cigarettes wine coolers and bangs is the always the answers to that
but it could be could be a could be an ex Memoir.
Yeah it really and every woman in the world. Would you like? Oh my God cigarettes bangs in a wine cooler. Amen.
Some asshole just broke up with her like yeah.
Yeah, but ten copies. Yeah,
if you because my last one I've got six but I'm going to just share four five. Okay, I've one thing I've changed my mind about. This is what our goes back to our earlier conversation. If you can't do it how 2% don't bother Mmm Yeah like that. I was like, I'm not going to like cook every meal at night until I can do this class. I really want to do at the CIA The Culinary Institute of America again, and now I'm like, you know what my kind of pretty good fish tacos is still a family meal where we're sitting down saying grace together.
Yeah, like it's good enough. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. I see so used to be the Mantra used to be a hundred percent or not at
all. Yeah, I'm not going to work out until my schedule opens up for me to work out every day at 5 o'clock. Right? My schedule will never do that. I'll never do that. Yeah, so like I'm doing like my little bands and my stuff on my phone at my house or whatever like like yeah, the had a perfectionism is not only a defense mechanism. It's the worst procrastination tool in the whole
world the great avoidance to
avoidance. Just real quickly. I will say sleep. I've changed my mind about sleep.
Like why exercise eat? Well any of that stuff if you're not sleeping? Yeah sleep is like the best isn't it? Yeah, but no one and no one in their 30s or 20s will believe you and functional medicine. I changed my mind about that. Okay, five absurd stupid things. Let's do it. You do that last I'd say
no, let's let's do the that's to the Absurd stupid stuff and then we'll go to
exciting. Okay, so this is so interesting for me because I as a qualitative researcher, really
Out at the mattock analysis here. I've got some kind of unprocessed problem with the British the British. Yeah, okay, but okay, so five of sort of stupid fun things. I do I want on movie night. I give myself a movie night because I love movies. Yeah. Me too. I only watch movie trailers, huh? Yeah while I watch like 20 movie trailer. I'm
don't do you do all the edgy over there? You do it on YouTube or how do you find the
travel trailers? Oh, wow. Yes. Yeah, and it's like the happiest place in like
Ever not. It's my it's like I probably a minute light like, okay, so I watched movie trailers and movie night. It's so it's you get the whole emotional Rush. Yeah a narrative. That's not even that. Yeah. I this is a stupid thing. I do. I really am a bad trash talker and super competitive. So whether it's like ping-pong or we play a lot of family Foursquare. I play a lot of cards. I'm like a shit top.
Yeah, terrible shit talker, you know, I can see it. I can see my God. Yes, you can see it. I can see it.
Yeah
passion. Okay, so I'm obsessed with Rick beato videos on YouTube where hoses Rick beato. I don't know that he's a music producer. And so he does like the best countdowns. He does. He's great count out. So the 20 best acoustical intros to rock songs, and he's my age and so like yeah the 20 best vocal like I really took a problem with it like it took a
Like he's a Beatles fan. So there's a lot of shit ton of beetles in there. But so like let's just do this three best vocal. I'm a big music person and a big rock and roll person and Texas
Music person about to get very much you gonna get thrown time. Yeah, maybe schools here. Okay,
so I thought there would be only one song that could be the number one vocal introduction to uh song What would your guests would be to think about Harmony
Harmony? I'm already out of my depth
here.
Kan Kan Okay carry on
way. Oh yeah. I was thinking Whitney Houston from The Bodyguard soundtrack, but Lord have
mercy I know that
I love you Whitney.
I love you Whitney too. But this is Austin, Texas. I know and I'm gonna take you out one night and we're gonna watch number to be out of it. I'm ready. Okay? Yeah, so it was he did Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody, which I think good Kansas was three Paperback Writer from the Beatles was to I just take exception so I watch all those
Best acoustical guitar intro all that's all like the 70s. Yeah, like Jim Croce and staff bass electric guitar. I still have some issues with some of his but I walk watch a lot of rugby out a brick be out of videos. Okay?
Oh wow paper goes down. I'm Gonna Change Your Life you I'm
ready. Okay, I watch a lot of British crime procedurals. Hmm. All right? Okay, like I yeah crime procedural but you know like a, you know, like Law and Order but British. Yes, I watch like a ton a ton. Yes gogglebox God
Goal, have you watched this? No never heard of it? Okay. It's I think it's all over like a different countries now, but I watched UK gogglebox. It's where you watch people watching television.
It's like response videos. So you get to see how they
respond and the and you you fall in love with these families summons obsessed with British time crime procedurals and gogglebox gogglebox. Yes also
sounds like a near-future dystopian technological like Terminator kind of
thrilled as but it's better go box. No,
Action at all. It's just like he's like kind of normally normal ordinary British families going boy and you're like, I just laugh really hard and then Tick Tock I've spent a lot of time watching tic
toc. Really. Yeah, I do get set I Tick Tock for me. I think it's kind of like I feel like someone's peeking around a corner. Hmm late at night going. Yeah heroin $10. Yeah. I'm just like I can't I'm afraid to go and tuck tuck because I
Understand why I'll get
hooked. You have to my Instagram. I just put my favorite Tick-Tock. All right, let me do it with you. Okay, let me ask this question. Would you rather eat? Okay, I baby goat hmm or matter baby or a matter baby. What's the matter baby? Nothing's the matter. What's wrong with you?
My God, is that from
tick-tock?
My kids say that
you got me hooked. That was easy. Please promise me like pinky swear right now with your
pinky that you will put a link to this specific matter baby from Tick-Tock minor my on my episode
confirmed matter
babies is this is like this Irish guy and his dad. It's like matter baby. Okay, so that's the fuck's sake that it for fuck's
sake not a baby. They say that more than I do.
Yes, they're good. The Irishman good undervalued for is okay. That was excellent. So excited about
okay excited about two big things or 2021 is that I am taking a visiting professorship at Texas McCombs at UT Austin. Yeah hook'em 5, it doesn't so I'm going to do be there for a year and I'm bringing dare to lead to UT, Texas McCombs. And so we're going to do our training.
Out of the University of Texas more research develop some cloud-based tools for organizations to use. It's really exciting Good ITX. Katie accidents Beauty. I know amazing podcast. The new podcast is starting. I'm really excited. What is the name of your podcast unlocking US great very much. Thank you very much what we were talking about right super excited about less travel because I feel like the podcast maybe a way for me to do that. That will eat.
That travel. Yeah. I'm so excited to be parking here in Austin for a few months straight. I'm thrilled about it. It's and I looked back at say my 20s. When all I wanted to do is travel and after a while you're like, oh, I feel like George Clooney and that movie up in the air. Yes. I'm beginning. Yes to feel like I'm never quite unpacking and I don't like this feeling now and there's a lot to be said for seeing new places and so on but man
Man, do I love these sort of energetic conservation of just having a nice routine.
But don't you think routine will set you free. I do. Absolutely I do too like yeah, so I'm excited about a new work thing that we're doing were 30% is leading my team and my organization 70% is white space creative time. Wow, we'll see if we can make it happen, but we're that's great. It's a big it's a big percentage Yeah. What are you
hoping to a to do with that 70% or do you have any idea what types of
new research big?
Arch and so it's hard research on human experience. And so I love that like my happy place is like alone with my data like that's
either grown up watching curled up with your data. Yeah, like snuggling my dad.
I'm going to do one more talk to you before we
leave. I'm ready. I'm ready for it. So we
thought okay. I'm going to work on.
A new book. I'm going to write more. I'm going to think about them but the podcast is going to take a lot of creative white space for me because I want to be really thoughtful. Yeah, I feel like you're really thoughtful like you think through what you want to talk to people about and I wanted to like we have our discernment lens for the podcast for success for us is contribution. Hmm. And so if at any point, I feel like a book will not make a contribution. I pull it back. Yeah, if at any point, I feel like this is just contributing to all the bullshit and
Is I'm going to pull it back. So I think in order to meet that discernment goal of contribution. I have to be really thoughtful and I think that's gonna take creative space.
Yeah, I think you'll do great. I also think you have a you haven't a tune meant to other people's emotional states that elicits a lot of very vulnerable truth. And I think if you have that you're set as far as calculation. I think that checks the Box there's some of that certainly there are a million plus pi,
Podcasts there. There's some of that out there but to get a consistently I think is still quite difficult. I think it's hard as an audio listener. If you're looking for those raw moments of Truth and messiness within which you can find and learn so much. I think you are very gifted at doing that. So if you do that consistently, I think you're in good shape.
Thanks. I'll come to you from entering
I will make no claims to have good answers, but I can I can certainly make up some answers and do my
best.
One last protect hot. Let's do it. Okay. Okay all
this.
Oh, wow. It's a graphic tick-tock.
What is that looks like to me looks like a butterfly?
wings
a wing
And I give it two thumbs up.
All right. Tick-Tock first ones on us. That was good. That was good.
Wing waiting for please tell me there's an edge like an Elmer Fudd somewhere in that Tick Tock. There should be there half. There should be like an animated remix with all my buddy. That's
probably all right. We might be too like but this is my hashtag wholesome Tick-Tock. I'm so
I like I love it. Well, I'm so happy that you're going to be spending more time here in Austin. Yes, how exciting yeah and where can people learn all about your latest interests including Tick-Tock your latest.
Objects where can people best find you
brene brown.com is all of the things
all the things open a browser. So nice to see you again. It's so nice to see you too so fun. Yeah, so to be continued
yeah. Yeah. Oh yes to be continued
and for everybody who's watching or listening you can find show notes links to everything. We've talked about including the promised Tick-Tock videos in the show notes at Tim top log forward slash podcast.
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