If you look at the state of the world, we have to rebuild the entire system right now of everything. It's completely broken down and you call it a great reset. Who are the people who are designing the blueprint for tomorrow who are the builders are going to build a new systems. I want to meet them. I want to talk to them. I want to find out how they're feeling because we've all got this thing of
We don't know whether to be optimistic or pessimistic. We're all on the fence. I'm an optimist and I think as we Face the great reset it's going to take a lot of optimism and a lot of talent from a lot of people to find a common ground that we can work together on and we actually are going to need all sides of the political aisle to collaborate. We're going to need all cultures, all hands on deck, 6, we're going to need everyone working together. So how do you do that? Well,
One has a common ground and that's what we're trying to do with. N FTS.
That was platen. I have to tell you just for me personally at of my entire podcasting career over over 10 years. Now, I guess gosh, I'm really dating myself like 15 years. Now. This is in my top five podcast.
That I've ever recorded. It's right up there with Jack Dorsey Elon Musk. This one is just absolutely killer Platinum. My mind is certainly one of the greatest living photographers on the planet. He's also just a fantastic human that cares. Deeply about our Humanity. He's known for his very intimate and up-close-and-personal portraits. He sat down with and photographed hands down some of the most powerful people in the world across a whole slew of
Different disciplines. Let me just give you a few of his clients. Brock Obama Vladimir Putin. Kobe Bryant Muhammad Ali, Trump Bush. Clinton Stephen Hawking and Edward Snowden just to name a few speaking of Edward Snowden. It was platens Snowden nft, that sold for five point five million dollars. So many just amazing Stories here and even a hint at platens. Next 10 ft drop. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.
This is platinum.
Thank you so much for joining me on the show. It's great to be here and
it's really nice to get to know you as a friend. This is this is all so exciting.
Yeah. I really, you know, we did a little preach at a year, a couple months ago now, over zoom. And it was so fun to connect with you and hear about all the stuff that you're up to especially as it applies to an FTS. And so, you know, I immediately said it but we got to have you on the show. Let's talk about the stuff publicly. So it's cool to have you on today.
Nate. Let's go. Let's do it. Yeah, I think a great place to start would
be. I would love to just back up a tiny bit and just talk about what you've been up to over the last couple decades.
Well, I'm a photographer or I started out as a photographer and I was drawn to this idea of power and Leadership. I've always been fascinated by it. And I've always had a healthy disregard for power and
There was a quote that Martin Luther King always used to say that was really important to me. He always used to say, Beware of the illusion of Supremacy and I was thought that was really interesting because I've been asked over 30 years to try to capture the spirit of you could say some of the most powerful people in history.
Yes. And
perhaps the most important attribute, one needs, when you're in, those positions is to have a healthy.
Disregard for power and Supremacy. I fundamentally believe, everyone is equal or born equal and should be treated with the same respect. Obviously, that sounds a bit naive considering the state of the world. But that's a genuine belief. I have. So I don't see why someone is supreme above someone else. And consequently. I don't see someone is lower than somebody else. It's what we do with our lives. That really counts.
So that was always in my head when I was photographing all these interesting people and the more honest I got the more I was asked to do it more
and more. Hmm. What do you mean by artist unpack that a tiny bed? I
was brought to America by John Kennedy jr. When I started my career, we were going through a recession in England, and there was no chance of a proper career as a photographer.
Broke, it's always raining. I'd never met a famous person in my life. And I had no access to any one that was going to be famous. So I started taking pictures that were authentic to me that were true to the moment that you share with someone. And I always wanted to think when someone who knows this person or even love this person sees my pictures are going to go. Oh, that's definitely then. So that was always my goal and I start shooting for sort of underground.
Style magazines like the face Arena ID and shooting in this way. The strange thing is that when John started his magazine in New York called George. It was a magazine about politics and fame from the inside out because he grew up in it. He never saw it, the way everyone else saw it to him. The president was his father.
So when he did this magazine, he didn't know anything about photography. Thank God for me. And he asked his team to bring a stack of magazines from around the world to the offices. When they were plotting, the look of the magazine in the feel of it and they just went through hundreds and thousands of pages and he would just tear out pictures that he liked the look of and he said to his team. Here's a stack of the style of images. I like get these people to New York.
And it turns out. All right, 70% of the pictures were mine. Wow, my name kept coming and no one's looking at the name or the credit on them. They were just looking at the, the strong faces that I'm getting in the shapes of the body.
So I got this call from the Kennedy family saying
we're working on a secret project and we'd like to fly you to New York. I've never been to America. And we'd like, we'd like to talk to you and I told them to fuck off because I thought they were
Chuck also is a wind-up. Yeah, it was one of my mates. Calling me up saying, you know, trying to take the mick out of me. So thank God, they call back and I you know, I matured as quick as I could and I apologized for my atrocities and they flew me to New York and I met with John and the team and he was really a great guy. And and he said, there's something honest about your work and I'm not really interested in doing the same kind of Photography that we've seen.
Who the 80s which is a celebration of Fame and power. I'm interested in showing it. As I say behind the scenes. What are these? People really liked? And he said, I'll make a deal with you that I will send you to the most powerful people in the world. People. You would not normally be qualified to photograph or not normally have access to and I will do that and they will sit for you because I asked them to, but he says your side of the deal is that you
Cannot be intimidated by their position of authority. Hmm, you've got to be respectful but authentic and connect with them in a very honest way. And if you can do that and show me a picture, that gives me a feeling of what this person is really like then you'll get another job and another job. And so that's how we started one thing led to another and before I knew it. I was photographing Martin Scorsese. I was photographing the mayor of New York.
Giuliani at the time I was photographing Governors and and it just grew to the point where I started photographing presidents and then I started photographing other people and I just got very comfortable in that environment and I'm a an observer and I wanted to learn behind the scenes. How does this power system work? I see how it works. The chief of staff in the left corner of the room is the one that's actually pulling all the strings. So that's the person I need to negotiate with next.
And I just, I just got good at it. And in the end, they tell me I forgot off more world leaders than anyone in history, which is kind of bizarre. What's really bizarre is not that, that's a cool thing. What's really bizarre is a huge percentage of the world. Leaders are photographed are either in jail for corruption or under investigation for
corruption. That's crazy.
That's what's scary to me. So that goes back to my original core belief that you should never be.
Dazzled by power Fame glory and the idea of success that actually so many people. I've worked with have fallen from grace and I may have photograph them before their success happened, or at the Pinnacle of their success or after their success in the midst of their failure. If you can find that Humanity in it, all you really see how you navigate, the ups and downs of life and how easy it is.
For someone to fall to the wrong side of morality. And I'm not judging because my role is to be non-judgmental and I'd like to talk to you about that later with this nft thing. It's a time when we have become more judgmental. And I think we need to be more Curious. So for me as a photographer of always been more curious, I'll leave it to the audience, the viewers to be judgmental. They look at the
History will judge this person's character. Not me. I'm not capable. And nor should I be of making those judgments. If I can do something that's honest. Then history will make the final call, was this a good person? Was this a bad person?
I'm curious when you just sitting down with these world leaders and you're sitting down with these, what many people would consider to be very powerful and intimidating? People. Was that something that you had to learn how to deal with. Like, was that a trait?
You had to then go and figure out how to build up in yourself, or is that something that was always in you from a young age? You know, I have
such few talents. I'm terrible at most things. Anyone who knows me? Really? Well. They know I'm extremely dyslexic. I can't read very well whenever I've given a speech, I Have to memorize it before hand because I can't read from sight. I can't read a map. I don't know where I'm going in the car. I can barely get out of the car park. If I hire a car, so I'm useless.
It's so many things and forget about technology, which is kind of ironic, because I'm involved with nft so much, but I'm really good at connecting with people. I can read someone really quickly and I've learnt to read in the most difficult circumstances. Sometimes I find it easier. If you've got just a few magical minutes with someone in a difficult circumstance. It actually makes it easier. There's no time to Flap about and get to know each other. You
Go for it. Mmm. The only gift I really have is that I can see straight into your heart. Most of the time I could do that. I don't know exactly why you're feeling these things because I don't know anything about your life. I don't know what you were doing. 10 minutes before you walked into the photo shoot, but I feel something that you're feeling. Hmm, and that allows me to choon into a frequency. That's how I describe it.
Now, it's a frequency that everyone has and it requires a deep concentration to get into that frequency. But if you can do it, then you open up a whole world of that person's
Humanity. Hmm. Beautifully, put that's how it
works. That's how it works. And I've been in the company of some of the greatest journalists and writers when I've been on set, you know, because I would traditionally in the old days, I would be doing.
Picture and there'd be a great writer alongside me doing an interview and often what I felt. And what I discovered was much closer to the person's real character than the writer because the writer was going for technicalities. A lot of the time, the writer was sometimes even trying to trip
up row. They have an
agenda and they have an agenda and there's a sort of journalistic trap that they're luring.
NG the person into looking for the punchline. And of course for Tory doesn't really work like that. I was never part of the gotcha journalism idea and it's been very tempting to fall into that trap. And I've had a lot of people. I've worked with like, you know, magazine editors or photo editors who have sort of implied. They would want me to get a type of picture before my time, even in the room. Mmm, and I've always avoided it.
Because what's interesting is to go in to a meeting with anyone with or without a camera, without an agenda, without a preconceived notion of what this person is going to be like. And, as I said without judgment, so that you can be more Curious and you discover more and almost every experience. I've had that intimate, you know, with with these incredible historic figures. I always come away.
Away with this idea. Wow, that's not what I expected.
I'm curious. Do you have any examples of
that? I'll give you a perfect example with Barack Obama because I did his first ever Time Magazine cover when I took the picture 24 minutes, after he first announced he's going to run for president. Wow. I got him at the very beginning of a very complicated path. All the way to the top of the power pyramid, and I remember, you know, my
Colleagues at the magazine was saying, look, he's a very charismatic young guy. He's got an amazing smile. I get a smile, you know, we want the Charisma we want and I just felt uncomfortable about going to a photo session with this preconceived notion and actually the Obama I had the pleasure to meet was was quite different. He could certainly turn on the Charisma and the charm.
Arguably better than anyone else. Hmm. But what was interesting to me is that there was a book a self-help book that he was reading on his desk and it was called be quiet, be heard. It was a kind of how to raise delicate issues with an opponent and still find Common Ground. Hmm. In other words, how to compromise and the Obama the the I really captured that day was
One who was much more cautious than we, all expected that he was really thinking about how he's going to navigate this virtually impossible path to the White House. Critics of him will say he compromised too much that he didn't deliver all the promises. Of course, other people on the other side will say he should have compromised more. This is the debate. We have when we look back at history, but I got the thinking, man, the man that was quite
I don't mean prophecy really in a negative way. It's just that. This is how he was. He was very calm, and he was analyzing a very complicated situation. I thought that was very
interesting. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm curious though. When you sit down with someone like an embalmer in the very early days in your head. You're like, okay. This guy's making a run for it. That's amazing. When you sit down with a Putin that is already, you know Putin. Sorry. That's my dog in the
background. So
She's probably barking at the former KGB right
now. Yeah. Exactly. As we answer that mixture,
you know Putin was my first boot camp in intimidation tactics. Hmm, you know, it's one thing capturing Obama in the white house or Michelle as she steps out. As first lady for the first time. I mean, obviously there's a lot of pressure on your shoulders to deliver something that that that meets the
Challenge, but it changes gear when you're dealing with the, you know, someone like Putin or Mugabe or Gaddafi, as a whole different ballgame. And Putin was the first time I had been confronted with that kind of level of intimidation. Wow, you know, it went on and on it was brutal. I mean now I get it, I know the game so I made it through it. What year was this, by the way? I think this was 2008.
Eat, okay. It was really the moment when Putin steps onto the power stage and reasserts Russia's Authority on the world stage and it was clear that he's going to be a different kind of leader. Because, you know, with the collapse of the Soviet Union. I think Russia had had a very vulnerable time in terms of their Global power. And I think Putin always wanted to read
Establish Russia as a force to be reckoned with and that was his mission. Irrespective of the cost of freedom in the
country is a you flew into Russia to take this Photograph.
Yeah. I mean the Russian Federation sent a sort of note in advance saying we welcome mr. Platt on to take pictures of our president, but we want him to know that we regard photography as a side dish of vegetables to the
Eat. So what does that even mean? That means they think I'm not important. And I realized that actually, what Putin didn't want, was the American celebrity system, filtering his position through their eyes. He wanted to be seen as the tough nationalist that he is and that means stripping me down.
To taking away all my authority. So it's all about him. But the the interesting thing with me is that I have no Authority anyway, so there's nothing to strip away. I'm just a person and I'm just a person with a camera and so there was no conflict between me and him. In the end. I remember he walked into the room. I mean, it was a whole journey getting there. I was picked up from the hotel in Moscow, in December, and it was freezing, and I was driven in
Limo, which was like a former KGB black BMW and I was informed that the moment in history will happen in the in the Kremlin, as we got near the gates, the car kind of turned around fast and sped away. And we continue through the side streets of Moscow, out of Moscow into a dark Bleak Gothic Forest. I thought I was going to get whacked, you know,
I would have been freaking
out. Yeah, can't talk to the driver. You don't know where you go in. This is breaking the the protocol of the day.
Day, and eventually, I got to this really intimidating building with a two-story security wall around it with sort of snipers everywhere. And, you know, the snipers are turned to me. And then at gunpoint, I'm led into the building in the snow, carrying my equipment. And I wait in this room. That's very historic because this is the room where they dissolve the Soviet Union and now it's his office. Oh, wow, so the door opens
And in walks Putin with an Entourage that makes someone like Madonna look like a cartoon character. It, I've never known anything like it. He's got two translators who whisper in his ear all the time. He's got a whole team of a political advisors and a whole gang of bodyguards. And I nervously said to him, you know, mr. President. I'm very honored to capture this moment in history. But before we begin I'd like to ask you genuine question and so they turn to me for the question. They're all a bit irritable.
Not supposed to break this kind of protocol. So I said, well, I'm an Englishman but I'm a now proud to be an American citizen, but I was brought up listening to the music of The Beatles And I want to know if you ever liked the Beatles. So they translate in his ear. There's some confusing looks amongst the Entourage rewards you and and then and then Putin gets angry and in Russian he orders the two translators, all his advisors out of the room immediately.
The Bodyguard stay and then he turns to me and he says, oh my God, I love the Beatles. Oh, no way crazy. I did what? I didn't know. You spoke English. He said I speak perfect English. So I said, interesting. All right, in that case, who's your favorite Beatle? And he said Paul, I said, Raz, really interesting. Mate. I said, well, what's your favorite song? Is it Back in the USSR? Yeah. He didn't like that. Very much did not like that.
It's amazing.
Then he said to me with a twinkle in his eye. He said no, my favorite song is yesterday and you better think about it and I thought about it and I realized I'm being sent a subliminal message about the good old days of power and glory of the Soviet Union through a Paul McCartney song and joking aside that silly connection. We had allowed me in. And at that moment he just
That for me. And that's how I got the truth. I ended up an inch and a half away from his nose as I focused the lens. I could even feel his breath on my hand. As I fixed the f-stops on my camera lens and the truth is that the face I got on film is the face of power and authority in Russia. So, you know, you just got to be human with people.
Yeah, what an icebreaker, you
know, it's not a trick. I mean, I am a Beatles fan my dogs.
Name is Sergeant Pepper that you just heard barking and my son's name is Jude. So I am the real deal. So, it wasn't a trick. It wasn't me. Trying to be clever. I genuinely
thought I wonder what he thinks of the bills. Yeah, that's amazing. I get to ask those questions. What? A crazy thing to hear him speak English. I heard rumors that he speaks English, but out of curiosity. Like, was
it super clear? Was it broken a little bit. He speaks very quietly. He's very internal.
My his power is a kind of, I mean I've heard that Stalin was very quiet and Mild mannered as a person. He was not a sort of dictatorial. He was dictatorial, but not in his presence. He people said he was seem to be very shy and awkward almost and when you're that close to Putin, I felt that there are some similarities there. He's quietly, spoken mild-mannered. He's got a very heavy.
But like, he understands everything I say and I mean, it speaks really well. Hmm, you know, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I read somewhere recently. I can't remember who said it that when you're on your deathbed. All that matters is the truth and I find that really powerful. Hmm and think about it, you know, when all is said and done and your life is over and you're about to say good night. What are you really going to be thinking about? At that time? You're going to be
Thinking about the most profound sincere truthful, things in your life for better or worse. And when I'm taking a picture of someone,
That's what's happening to me. I'm thinking I'm trying to be as honest as I possibly can. It's only a true moment. I mean the picture I took of Putin was 15 hundredths of a second. It's a tiny moment and I can't say that I captured someone's soul in that time. That would be a really cheesy cliche. But what I can say is that I captured a true moment that I experienced and if
I do get it, right and sometimes I get it right that picture resonates across the board with Putin. I've been told that he likes that picture. He has it in his office. Hmm. And his supporters like it because it shows him as a tough nationalist. But his opponents, especially members of the press, the Free Press and especially members of the human rights community that I am now part of
They'll also love the picture because it's given them a banner to show everything that's wrong with power and authority in Russia. I recently found out that the the LGBT community has has adopted my picture and they photoshopped Rouge onto his face, you know, the rainbow colors and they use it online to demonstrate against excessive nationalism in Russia and fight for their
And I recently heard that Putin's Administration. If I'm correct here, they've issued a warning that anyone who circulates my image that's been doctored and is in support of, lgbtq Rights will go to jail. Wow. So it's the same picture. It's a true moment and it sort of resonates with everybody is just everyone reads something different in it depending on their point of view, the
sticking.
Ian with Russia. But branching over a closer to the nft world Snowden. I'm looking at the photo now that you took of him. What a young Snowden back then, he looks so young. Can you walk us through that one? It was that I take it. That was also taken in Russia as well.
Yeah, that was, you know, I have to say at this point that and you'll know this nothing is done in a silo like everything I've ever done. I've been part of a team. I've needed the support of
Great photo directors, people like Elizabeth biondi at the New Yorker, David remnick, the editor at the New Yorker. Great. Editors at Time Magazine. I've had the privilege to work with and in terms of Snowden. It was a real collaboration with my friend, Scott daddy age who used to be editor-in-chief of Wired Magazine.
Yeah. I know Scott actually, that's me. Really? Yeah. I'm, he created abstract as well. Right Netflix. Yeah. Yes, which you were, you were an episode of which is f Prime Steak.
Well,
Scott, I happen to believe is one of the most talented people of our time. Absolutely. He's a Visionary. So, I call him up. We're really good mates. We've been best friends for many years, and we've done a lot of work together. We did Karl Rove together. We did Bush senior together. We've been through the, the middle of this this game, but I called him up, one day. We were having a chat and I said to him, wouldn't it be interesting if we could get snowed? And he said I was going to say the same thing to you and
You couldn't reach him. No one knew where he was is in hiding somewhere. So we spend nine months trust building building bridges, trying to reach anyone. That might have a connection with him and we ended up going through many channels back channels in the human rights Community. Eventually. We got this note, this mysterious note delivered to us. That sort of said, go to hotel Metropole overlooking Red Square in Moscow. Go to Sweet.
I think it was 311 go on this date. And if you're in the room at this date at 12:00 noon, you will be contacted. And this is this is James Bond shit. We'd never done this before. So Scott and I had to create an imaginary job that we were going to Russia to photograph shop fronts. We went not really knowing who's going to come to the door if it's real, if it's going to be him, if it's going to be a SWAT team.
Game or the CIA, or the new KGB. We didn't know and we went to the right Hotel, the right room, the right date. Waited and we 12:00 noon. There was military Precision. There was a tap at the door and I remember looking at Scott and we both thought. Okay, we have no idea what's on the other side of that door and I can't remember whether it was Scott. Open the door or mean it gets a crazy. This is so freaking
crazy. You literally could have been killed.
Killed. Yeah. Joke, like something like that. Could
have happened. Yeah, I didn't know where he was still. Don't know where he is. Cia didn't know where he was, and we had made contact with him at the, most vulnerable moment of his life. I think Scott opened the door. No wider than, I don't know, 15 inches or something. And this shadowy smallish figure slips through the door. He's got a backpack with his laptop in it, which he places at the side of the hotel bed. He's got a
So that's two sizes too big, which he takes off. He rolls his shirtsleeves. His glasses are broken and slightly tilted to one side here is a little bit. Scruffy shoes are a little worn and he sits down on the edge of the hotel bed and doesn't look at me or Scott. He just calm, he looks down at the floor and he whispers. I'm Ed. I'm here. Let's begin. Wow, and he starts a kind of
Conversation with himself which goes on for ages about his journey through the corridors of power and how gradually he got access to information that he felt was morally unsound. Leading to the moment when he was compelled to become the biggest whistleblower in history. Was he
having a rough time at that moment? They do you feel like, I mean, his nerves had to be just completely frazzled in it. You could have been there to kill him. Right? So it's
like, you're right.
The problem that someone like him faced at that moment and he still faces today and it's a problem that I recognize now, with most of the people, I'm photographing in the human rights Community is that you don't know who you can trust, and the media can be a great thing. Can be great, amplification for your voice. But you have to filter your deepest values through a system of people that you don't know.
Know if they will treat your value system with respect and truth and it's a very complicated gamble that obviously someone wants to get their story out and speak from the heart about what they really care about, but they don't know whether I or Scott or anyone is going to twist The Narrative and put an angle on it. So I'm very fortunate, now that I look back that. I've spent 30 years, treating people.
With respect and especially when it comes to Human Rights work. I've always tried to just amplify their voice. It's not as I said earlier. It's not for me to judge them. It's not for me to put a spin on it, history will do that and their actions will do that. So it's my job to give you as closer, a feeling as I can get. This is what the person is like, and this is what they care about and this is their voice.
So, when Snowden knew that we were trying to reach him. I've got a history that he can look at and see I trust that he has Integrity. It paid off at that moment because he decided to trust me and Scott and we ended up having the most extraordinary time. I asked him about loneliness. That's the first question. I asked him this before. I took a picture and he said something that probably will resonate with all your listeners.
Now, as we are all in covid, you know, dealing with this nightmare. He said, loneliness can be a terrifying thing, especially when you've been robbed of all the people that you love but loneliness can also be an empowering thing because when you're lonely, there is nothing. But a wall of Silence, listen to The Silence he said and you just might hear the voices of History talking to you laughs on a conversation we had before I even
I took a picture. It was an amazing guy. He trusted me. I then and Scott felt the same. We had to carry that trust. And with that, with responsibility. It's a huge responsibility when someone trusts you with their well-being, and more important than that, their voice and their value system. So, we had a duty to get it, right? And we really worked very hard to produce a set of
Chosen Scott wrote the piece that accompanied. It was the same. We took great pains to make sure that we treated him with respect and we weren't putting an angle on it. I'm not trying to sell Edward Snowden to anybody. I'm not trying to sell anyone, but I am trying to give you a sense of what he was really like, and that's what we did. Hmm. And because of that, we became friends, right? We have we have a relationship now. We're I'm I'm in contact with Snowden and he's
He's a good guy. And so it was natural that when we, this this new nft thing started to blow up. I thought, well, I wonder if we can use this new exciting technology to provoke a new set of respectful debates. And who better than Edward Snowden to collaborate
with? Yeah. Absolutely. That felt very
natural first collaboration and it did
Did really well. Yeah, I was going to say speaking of the collaboration walk me through kind of what that process was like, for you. And what was the outcome. How did the proceeds? What do they go
towards? Yeah. Well, it's a really interesting story because Ed and I both believe that it's not right to profit from certain types of Storytelling. So, we knew that if we are going to collaborate together, then the money has to go to
A good cause I've got a human rights foundation called The People's portfolio. And what we do is we use multimedia storytelling to amplify voices of Human Rights Defenders and activists around the world. I think of it as a Communications Department for a new set of cultural Heroes people who will lead us towards truth and righteousness. So I said to him, if we collaborate on making an N of T. Are you comfortable with me? Having your
Voice talking about your value system. Knowing that the funds we raise will go to my Foundation to help continue amplifying other voices, like yours around the world, and he was very generous and he supported me in that endeavor. And then he also said, well, I would love to do something as well on top of that for freedom of the press. And can I use one of your pictures for a different? Nft? So we did this lovely.
They've exchanged together. I mean the the freedom of the press one, we did with him. I think it raised five and a half million and it's kind of ironic, isn't it? Because in Russia, that the Press is is being choked right now of oxygen by, you know, an authoritative government. And it's kind of great and slightly ironic that I was able to contribute to raising that money to fight for freedom of the press. The other thing is,
Is that I feel very strongly in the USA. But we're also having a different kind of threat to freedom of the press. It's not so much that an authoritative government is is shutting us down. We're almost doing it ourselves because everyone. Now money is involved with news. And so you're getting this polarization of the press. We're, we're choking ourselves for freedom because there's very few journalistic. Outlets that
Will dare to examine all sides of an argument. You have to go to one side to get one side. And then another news agency to get enough a different side and you have to guess that the answer the truth is somewhere in the middle,
right? If you're that smart, oftentimes, you'll just read one angle and leave it to be completely true. All
right. Yeah, that middle ground is almost disappearing. So it's, they're just leaving up to our Good Will and our commitment to a truth to find out what the shared experience really is. So
You
could argue that freedom of the press is being destroyed in this country as well by forces of capitalism and greed. So, it was really important thing that I'm very proud that we did that and we sort of experimented with this really exciting, new technology, which is called n FTS that we did something good. So it's good but that you know, there's a danger here and something I do want to talk about. We then FTS
Because it essentially there's two ways of looking at it. This this revolution of Technology, It's So based on metrics. And also money, let's be honest that you find yourself. If you're an artist, there's a great danger in measuring the value of something. By metrics, art is very rarely about metrics in. Any way culture is very rarely about metrics.
I'll put a question to you and to your listeners. How would you measure Martin? Luther King's. I Have a Dream speech, would you say? Well, there was no violence recorded that day at the March on Washington in the 60s. So that's a good metric. So that means it's a good speech or would you say there were 250,000 people there that day? That's another metric. So you could say it was a successful speech because of that, or
You could say, I can't really measure that speech the value of it. So it was not an important speech. I would say, it's one of the most important moments in American
history. In some sensitive immeasurable, right? They impact in the durability that speech has had an impact over several Generations. Now, has just been, this is impossible to
measure. That's right. So then let's fast-forward to n FTS. The danger of n ftes. Is that everyone measures. The
The success of an mft sale or an mft event, whatever you want to call it with, how much money did it make? And a bunch of metrics. Now, if you look at art history, there's a great history of collectors and critics who have got it fundamentally wrong.
If you look at Van Gogh, for instance, he didn't sell one painting. The only person that bought his paintings was his brother out of Goodwill to support Vincent. Mmm. So you could say that van Gogh was an absolute flop. If you're going to measure in Biometrics and yet history over the years has taught us that he was an absolute beautiful human being and a genius. And now his work is worth so much money, but it's not really the money that makes it great.
The feeling we get, when we look at his work. It means something to us as human beings. And when Picasso painted lay down was Elder Avenue, which you could say, is the first Cubist painting, all his friends and and the local critics in Paris thought, he'd gone mad and yet, history. We look back and we realize it's one of the most important pieces of art of the 20th century. So I'm not comparing what we did with those great people, but I am trying to make
Make a point that the danger we face with this nft Fascination is that we might be measuring the success and development of nft. He's in the wrong way. I think that it's if you're just going to look at how much money did it make, I think you're missing the point for me. What's really interesting about NF TS is that it's another great channel to stimulate respectful debate and in, tell some stories that will bring people.
Back together to a shared experience and a central space. And if you look at how polarized our society is right now, I think anyone who amplifies that polarization is on the wrong side of history and there's profit to be made from doing that because you make more money doing that stuff. But if you are focused on bringing people together in any way that you can and we're all different. We all have different skills. We all know, we can deploy our talents to do that.
In some way. I think that's much more interesting when we get all these amazing conversations about the nft community. There are people, as there always are, who are on the right side and the wrong side, the right side of it is that I've met and had so many amazing conversations with people. Just like you mate. Today. We're we're genuinely looking for answers about how we can navigate a future path together and N ft's could
Help do that. This is when it gets interesting. How can we do something? That's positive. There are problems with then FTS, you know, there's the environmental impact and that's something I had to sort of try to navigate because when I first started discovering all this stuff, I didn't know about all this stuff. So I had to learn really quickly and we have a choice. Do we be bystanders? Right? Do we just stand on the sidelines and criticize it appears to me that?
Entities are going to explode no matter what it's Unstoppable now. So I'm of the opinion that of Kate the damage it does to the environment is significant, but maybe the answer is to get involved and try to from the inside of the community, try to shape a conversation that can help stimulate inspiration that. We actually move it somewhere Better Together.
Yeah. I mean the good news is that in the folks that I'm
Speaking with working, on the blockchain level on the code level. Obviously the biggest platform right now, for an FPS is aetherium. Right? So, yeah, because they are that proof of work. They are burning a ton of electricity being in the minting and, and trading of entities, but that said, I mean, there is a very clear roadmap where six months from now that will not be the case. And they'll make that flip and they'll introduce that new code base, that moves to this, what they call a proof of stake. And when that happens things get much more energy.
Efficient, it's still there is obviously always some environmental load to anything that's running digitally that requires power but it won't be near what it is today, which is just fantastic. So I'm happy that that is coming.
Well, the big question is, how is that happening? And that's happening because there's good, people involved with the system who are trying. Yes it from the inside and therein is the problem that we all face with everything is very easy to be a bystander.
And be a moth dancing around somebody else's flame and throw judgment and criticism, but it's much harder to be an upstander get involved. And turn on the lights yourself, right? There's risk in that because you're going to get your hands dirty and you're going to make mistakes, especially now when everything is in public, but I think we have to be humble about our Evolution. None of us are born, perfect. So we evolved together.
And nowadays, we evolved in the public eye. So if we make mistakes, we try very quickly in a very humble honest way. Okay, that wasn't great. I've got a correct that as quick as possible, but I'm prepared to be involved and be part of that transition. So, we fix it from the inside. So I thought, well, I'm not a powerful person, man. I've got, I've got no government backing me. I've got no Corporation. Backing me. I'm just a person with a camera and a story to tell.
Tell, but I do think that we can stimulate respectful conversations, and I don't think you can guilt anyone or accuse anyone into action. And like, this is something I've learned through my work for many years. The only way to drive positive action is to inspire people to want to do it themselves. Hmm, and the only way to do that is to tell beautiful powerful stories that people.
Feel they have a stake in. I had the great honor to photograph Muhammad Ali. One of my all-time Heroes and he was very ill when I met him. I spent the day with him in his home. And he, in fact, I think it was maybe his last ever photo session because he died few months afterwards. At the end of the shoot. I said to him Muhammad, you are the greatest.
Teach me to be great. How can my generation be as great as your generation had to be during the Civil Rights era? Now. He couldn't speak very well. He could barely Mumble. So I had to get really close to him and he kind of whispered in my ear and he said, I have a confession to make. What is it? I said he said I wasn't as great as I said, I was holy shit. I said, that's insane. That's the biggest confession I ever heard in my life. The whole world knows you as
Muhammad Ali, the greatest and then he said, you misunderstand me. He said, I'll tell you what was great. It wasn't me. It was that people saw themselves in my struggle, people saw themselves in my story and then he turned it to me. And now I have the great privilege to turn it to you and your listeners today, and he said, if you can get people to see themselves in the story, you put forward, then you
Have a chance of achieving greatness, but that greatness is never you. Personally. That's something much bigger called bridge-building. So if you take that to heart and then apply that to everything I've tried to do in my life. I try to bring forward a story that is not alien to you. That you see yourself in that story. That could be you. That could be how
Deal. It could be about your mom or your sister, or your uncle, or your father, or your brother. Whatever it is, or your friend. If I can create a closeness to an issue that you thought was separated from you and help you feel, you have a stake in it yourself. You are willingly. Coming forward to get involved with that issue and you're doing it because you choose to that's much more powerful than me. Accusing you of
If you know, make trying to make you feel guilty for something that you didn't even do. So that's how it works. And if we're talk apply that then to my work with NF, TS. I'm trying to do something positive. I'm not trying to be preachy, I'm not in a position to preach to anyone. If you're going to judge anyone, you better be perfect. And I am not perfect. It's obvious. I'm just a person, but I'm trying to bring people to a magical beautiful.
A place where everyone feels they belong there and there's not many of us doing that now. Yeah, there's a lot of us who want to join that club and if you look at the state of the world, we have to rebuild the entire system right now of everything. It's completely broken down and you call it a great reset. Who are the people who are designing the blueprint for tomorrow Who are the
Ours are going to build a new systems. I want to meet them. I want to talk to them. I want to find out how they're feeling because we've all got this thing of. We don't know whether to be optimistic or pessimistic. We're all on the fence. I'm an optimist and I think as we Face the great reset it's going to take a lot of optimism and a lot of talent from a lot of people to find a common ground that we can work together on and we actually are going to need all sides of the political aisle to collaborate.
Don't need all cultures. All hands on deck, 6, we're going to need everyone working together. So how do you do that? Well, everyone has a common ground and that's what we're trying to do with NF t s. So I'm kind of hijacking, this fascination with this great technology and trying to twist the attention being a bit manipulative, but it's for a good cause, so that's cool.
Yeah. Well, I'm curious to dig in.
Little bit more on the end of T front. I mean, based on what you've seen thus far and, you know, we are very early days on all things in of T. But just the idea that something can have proven provenance and proven scarcity and where it's digital and cannot degrade over time. And then the most beautiful piece that that I think that was very smart to code in and create was this idea of baked in resale royalties, going back to the
In terms of the content. So they have a revenue stream that every time they're in of T is resold. They receive a portion of that sale so that as things, appreciate they participate in that as well. What are your thoughts on everything that you've seen there? And and what, what can we still build? What is yet to be built? That needs to be built for the empty space?
Well, I'm all for cutting out the middleman. I love that power to the people. Yeah, you know, artists in the music industry as well as in Visual Arts of being shot.
After David, since the beginning of History, they are always shafted. So even the ones who became very successful. I mean, even the Beatles will tell you by the time they broke up. I mean, they were all broke Fleetwood. Mac. I heard with the same. It's almost like a cliche in the business. Someone made a lot of money. This is exactly the same in the visual arts to, you know, you have artists. It takes a lot of courage to express your vulnerabilities.
Great art means that you the artist is speaking from their heart and that's why it means something to you. Because it quietly resonates with your own vulnerabilities and your own feelings and your own hopes and fears. That's what great art is. And then, there's someone in the middle, who's on the one hand, there are a great promoter so they can help, but they take their cut a lot of the time because the artists are not
- minded they have totally invested in expressing their Humanity. There's a whole world of business that that happens, that somehow siphons off the funds that really do belong to the artist. So, are more for kind out the middleman, and I think it's about time power. Went back to the people, and I think that's really interesting about any of teas. But as with every technology, every step in history, we've
The something great is invented and then it's used for good and bad because the human condition is both positive and negative. It's black and white together. I'm very interested in what you said that a percentage of the nft sale always goes back to the artist. I think that's really interesting point, but and I don't have the all the answers on this, but it seems to me that in theory that works.
X, but that I've heard that that's only because it's sold on the same platform.
It is for platforms that. And then, enforce it for
sure. Yeah. Now what happens if the platform's change as you said, we're at the dawn of this. And if you think of the first computers and how basic there are, and you can't even read that, you know that data anymore. Imagine how fast this is changing and where we're going to be in 10 years time, 20 years time. So already I've been told, well it all.
It
works. Yeah, if it's on the same platform as it was originally sold, but if it changes platform and they're already an explosion of different platforms, then it's up to the Goodwill of the platform, just say whether they will honor that agreement.
So news is that most of the platforms out there today because it is kind of an open standard for how that has been written in the code. They all are respecting at everyone that I've seen. The only time that is not the case is when two people get together on.
The side agree on a price and do a trade that cuts out the platform, right? But in some sense the platforms are actually are going to be really important because they take out the risk right there. They they do the handing off in the exchange because when you have two Anonymous characters on the internet meeting to trade in nft, someone always either has to send the nft first or the money first, right? Yeah, I would say, you know, still 99% of vanity sales are happening through exchanges that support this. So,
You're right. It is early days. Who knows? But I've even seen this is a the crazes example. I think you might find this interesting. I saw a sale that happened of the very famous artist by the name of xcopy on a platform that did not enforce
the fee,
and it was a sale that was, you know, I think it was a little over a million dollars for one of these in ftes and the buyer noticed that it did not send the artist the fee, and then went in sent the artist the fee.
Ali and publicly said, this is the right thing to do, and it was just an amazing moment.
This is one of those pivotal moments. Where, as I said, I am an optimist and I do believe that overall the good side of our character. Always generally triumphs, not always generally triumphs. And so, this is a moment when people are given a choice. If there is, if it is a gray area, whether it is now or is in the future, we will
See how strong is the moral compass in our value system? And it feels good to do the right thing. And if someone has a choice and they make the right choice in this case, the want the example, you just gave, I think that's a sign that people are good. But there's going to be people who will try to mess with the system. And then it comes back to this wonderful community that has been created within ftes that, you know, the community
Does seem to have a strong value system, the great people I've spoken to, and they really do care that this is done. Right? So fingers crossed. Here's
the crazy. Crazy thing that you may have heard a bit about at this point, but it's I've heard from several sources of mine that are working on various different political platforms, that this next big election cycle that we see in the United States is going to be really relying on and for the very first
First time you'll see major candidates launch in FTS as a fundraising mechanism. Yeah, that's interesting. It is interesting. Right? Because what are those messages say how much money gets raised via them? How does that legitimized in FTS into our political system? And then what happens when, okay, just take out the left and the right for a second, but throw in some of the organizations that are out there that are hate based. You know, what happens when
They get into the game of creating an it's just like you're right. This tool can be used for all sorts of things. So yeah, it goes, it always goes both ways. I always does, doesn't
it. You know, what's a victory to one side is a failure to the other and then it's flips the other way, but I think what we know is that this is going to transform how Society works, you know, as it becomes more and more embedded in our infrastructure, especially, as I said earlier. We are having to rebuild world this
Going to be part of that discussion. I remember, if I'm right here. I serve on the board for art and culture at the world economic Forum. So deeply involved with Davos and the programming that goes on there. And many years ago. Davos is a crazy place. Right? And I was rushing from one meeting to the other in the corridors, their of the Congress Center. And I saw this group of people, literally.
He sitting in the corridor next to the cafe and having an impromptu meeting and you've got to understand every Davos you got like the 2000. Most interesting, most powerful people in the world in business in the NGO. World in politics in art and culture to it's all mixed up. So in anything is going on, there is kind of going to be a thing and I remember I had five minutes. So I sat down got a coffee before. I was rushing to the next thing and I started listening and it was one of
First discussions about blockchain. It was just an impromptu meeting. They weren't even chairs. People were sitting cross-legged on the floor. And there was just chatting about this thing with it was totally alien to me at the time, but I had one of those moments, you know, when you think bloody hell, this slight Frontline of History stuff here. Yeah. I obviously, I didn't hear much about it for a few years and then it grew and then it grew. And then I keep remembering back to this moment where I saw one of the first discussions about what this could be and how it works.
And how people are explaining that there's a chain and you can can embed data in that chain. So you can find out very quickly who has corrupted the chain or who has made it better. That's that's interesting.
Oh, it's so cool to look back, you know, the Technologies and someone that has been you know, in some of those meetings, when you see some of those types of things being defined. It's mind-blowing.
Yeah, like there were a couple of people who literally developing the technology there and then explaining to
Does and just interested people what they hope to do with this and how it works. And everyone was sort of scratching their heads and say yeah, but how does it work again? What is it, but we were all drawn to it. It was a moment, you know, and I've been in so many bizarre moments when it's the beginning or the end of something. I don't know how I find myself in those situations, but I've just always so often there. This was one of those
moments. I mean, you probably should have pulled out your wallet and bottom Bitcoin. At that point, that one
I wish I
had you know, but you know, it's weird. I don't I'm not in it for the money, you know, obviously I want to provide for my family. I want to be able to fund the work that I do and I want to raise money for good causes but I've never been very good at that side of it. That's not what I'm striving for. So I was really genuinely interested. I wish I was clever enough to say I'm going to buy some shit in this but
I was really interested in, that's interesting. A chain of information that you can track so easily and how many dark sides of society have thrived because you can't track where the
money came from. Hmm.
And if you think I've done a lot of work in the Congo on sexual violence and how it's connected to conflict minerals, which feed all our mobile devices and how it's very difficult to connect.
Necked where those minerals came from, a lot of them come from, very corrupt Minds that use forced child labor slave, labor, sexual violence, as a rule book for managing the mine and I've been to the mines. I've been there and I've seen it. And I've met incredibly brave people who are survivors, who have gone through this system. And when I speak to Big tech companies, they all say where it's very difficult.
Ought to guarantee 100% that the Colton and the tin and the Tantallon in. In our devices, didn't come from a corrupt. Mine didn't come from conflict minerals. They can't guarantee it. So that's just an example of how important it is, especially now for our
generation. We
want to know, you know, we want to know that those sneakers were not made in a sweatshop.
We want to know how people were treated who made that product. We want to know is this company, a good company that we're going to buy their products for or even for the company that we're going to work for. We want to know especially my kids generation. My daughter's 15. My son is 13. So they want to know even more than our generation did do. And so, the blockchain idea. Let's forget about the technology for a second and just talk about the philosophy.
Sofia that it's like a trail, a paper trail and that's important.
Yeah, the transparency around it is, is so key in the fact that it can't be modified after the fact, you know, is also a fantastic aspect of it. One of the things I was talking to a friend, the other day about this, and we're talking about how here in the United States. The IRS just is clueless about all things blockchain, and it's funny that that's the case. Because in some sense, there's almost no better technology for them, too.
Go after people for taxes on given the transparency, that the chain actually offers. So it's going to be a great tool for them when they eventually get around to embracing
it. But you could be a cynic and you could say, well, you know, is that a reason why they don't want to embrace it, but it does allow a little bit of a gray area here. Folks. It's a time of transparency For Better or Worse. We're all having a constant 15 minutes of fame, which is Andy warhol's, famous statement, its permanent. Now, it's not even 15 minutes, senator.
Eternity, we're all in it all the time, and I've spoken to so many CEOs of huge corporations, who expressed to me behind the scenes, the terror, they're going through, where they have to evolve as a company in public. They acknowledge that their parts of their system that are not, right? And they are having to change and that means they have to face that they were wrong before and that trying to be right in the future, but that means that they have to face.
Ice some hard truths and they have to do that in public. They can't go away for three years, reinvent themselves, and come back because they're running a business great. So, it takes courage to evolve in public and it takes humility, and that's not just the companies that need to do. That governments need to do that. And also on an individual scale. We need
to do that. Oh,
absolutely. Because we've all made mistakes. We're all part of this thing and no one is perfect. As I said earlier, we've
All made mistakes and will continue to make mistakes
you ever watch a Ted lasso. Yes. I just absolutely love how that show is all about, just like males admitting and coming to the table and saying, I can be a better person and embracing therapy and like all of the things that they're just kind of deconstructing masculinity and such an interesting way,
you know, the most powerful two things you can think about is humility, which means that you can accept your failures and turn around quickly.
And the other thing is curiosity, because you need to ask questions of people and say, look, I know what I believe the time you. What you think, right? This bizarre idea that we can't talk to each other because we believe in different things, whether it's religion, whether it's particularly with politics right now. It's not about winning the argument. It's about having the
argument, right? Was the listening piece of it too. Is like you can ask the question. But are you truly listening? Yeah,
my job is to listen.
You know, when I sit down in front of someone, I'm about to photograph. I normally sit on the floor. They sit on an Apple box. Everyone sits on this Apple box. I've seen all those chat shows, you know, the late show, and all those ones where you have this formula, where the interviewer is sitting at a desk and the guest on the show is actually sitting on a sofa. There's a little lower and that creates intimidation for the guests.
That's not how I work for me. I don't want my guests, my subject to feel intimidated at all. So I readdress that power instantly and I often will sit down at their feet on the floor.
You're like the Oprah of Photography. Like you get people do cry and open up in
like well, we saw as rich as Oprah. I'm definitely into the humanity
side of it. Have you ever interact taking her
photo? No, never got to Oprah. She's a fascinating person and it would be a really interesting.
In meeting because she is very, I mean, she's the most media Savvy person on the planet. So often I found, how does someone who is that comfortable in front of the cameras? What are they really like? As a person? I don't know.
I just think that it's amazing that she has her own magazine. Were she's the cover every single month. That is like, the craziest thing I've
ever made it work. I mean, when I first saw that, I thought, hmm, that's interesting, subtlety, eludes them.
Um, but but it works for some reason he's made it work because she is the brand, it's not really. I guess she's not celebrating herself. Right? She's the person who is walking us through culture. Brain. It is
also just been so humble about the her own personal struggles. I think that your point about seeing yourself in someone else. She's so good at that.
You know, I made my first film, I'm making films now and my first film was called, my body is not a weapon.
And then it was about sexual violence in the Congo and my work with dr. Denis mukwege, who I supported, we campaigned for him to win the Nobel, Peace Prize, many years and I'm very proud to say he won it eventually. So we made a film about his story and very brave women. He helps heal. And we Amplified their voices from their point of view. And in the film. I felt I had to act as the
The narrator, and normally it's very difficult for a white, middle-aged privileged, man to be talking about sexual violence in the Congo About Women and Children. My first instinct was to step, well, away from that and just allow them to tell their stories, but it's a very difficult story to tell and you kind of need someone to hold your hand and take you through it. I think that's what Oprah is doing. She acknowledges.
Her struggles in life. And she says, come with me. He becomes like a friend. Who will take you there. Yes, and if you're going to ask people to go into a difficult room, then you've got to go in there with them. You can't just throw them in the room. Slam the door, and let them struggle with it because it's too
intense, right? Absolutely. Yes. She's so good at that. She's great. Yeah. I know. I've taken you over an hour and your time is certainly quite valuable. So I want to get to Europe in Ft projects and talk very specifically about the stuff that
Or working on both stuff. That's launched and anything. You might have planned. Can you kind of walk us through that?
Yeah, so there's a really fun exciting project. I'm working on right now, which is really, again playing with this idea of curiosity and judgment, you know, when you look at one of my pictures traditionally, whether it's Putin, or whether it's Prince, or Elon Musk or Harvey Weinstein, you make an instant judgment about that person. You see their face, and it comes
She's up a feeling that you already you already understand. So I thought, wouldn't it be interesting if I Stripped Away Your Capacity to make those judgments temporarily? And I looked at my pictures and I thought, let's take away 97 percent of that face and you're left with three percent. Perhaps that the part that is most important of a face. Ironically. It's the part that you can't recognize and that's the eye.
Why it's the window to someone's spirit or there. There's something going on. It's a magical Doorway to something. But if I showed you your own Iris, you wouldn't even recognize yourself. Hmm. So I thought it'd be really interesting to zoom right in. I've got this old scanner that was built by NASA in my studio in the 80s and it's like a cold war Relic. There's only one or two left in the
world. It's a drum scanner to drum scanner. And
so we went back into my
Negatives. And we blew them up so much that they become grainy, soft blurry, almost fingerprints to your soul. We took all these irises and I created this project called. I love you. I hate you. And you don't know who you're looking at. You don't know if it's someone you admire or someone that you loathe, someone who has made a great contribution to society or someone who is abused their power. So I decided to
create these individual irises and I did a drop of 12. And the idea is that when you buy one, you don't know if you're buying some one of your heroes or a villain of our time. And as you buy it, you find out who you've just got.
So how do you find out? Is that is a reveal that's done.
Yes, I reveal because you actually see the photograph, the full photograph of the person. I took
it from. Where do I do this at work? And I actually buy one of
these. We worked with my friends at
They're a great team of people Legend your art.
Yeah. Lg&e dot
art. Yeah, and we did one exhibition, which was a series of twelve irises. Then we did a second drop, which was another round with the second one had people like Harry Styles, James Comey, Donald Trump, Clinton, Kobe Bryant George, Clooney, Cara Delevingne, if you're into fashion as well, so it was a whole mix of characters. And again, you don't know which one
You're buying. This is so cool. I'm looking at them right now. Are you really? I mean, you take out the whites of the eye and everything, right? It
says, yeah, it's it's like, again this drum scanner was built by NASA. So it's built to look at the stars and examine space photography. So it goes in so deep and of course, it becomes grainy and soft because it's literally three percent blown up. But it turns into this beautiful sensory, almost a poem of someone's character and yet you don't know who it is. So I'm encouraging.
People to have a respectful debate and of course, so many people are saying, oh, shit, you know, I got Harvey Weinstein. When actually, I wanted Spike Lee, you know, and these people are all people who shaped History For Better or Worse, their game changers.
So, immediately, I, I just looked at one, by the way, and I was, it was as beautiful blue almost like it's very is very Celestial, like, kind of like look and I found out was it was Donald Trump.
All right. Thank you, go. That's the thing. And
And you know, this reflects back to how I've experienced a life in photography because when I photographed Harvey Weinstein, he represented bad boy Hollywood Swagger, you know, he was like he had this sort of Sopranos, kind of vibe to him in the movie business. Many years later that same picture represents something different. It represents an absolute monster.
Wow, you have Kobe Bryant here, too.
Yeah, Kobe when I worked with Kobe, I said to him, you know, Kobe, you always have this invincibility about you, you know, this self-belief. Where does that come from? Because most of us don't have that and he said, when I was a little boy, I used to look in the mirror. And when I was facing adversity, he said I would say to myself. Someone's got to win. It. Might as well be me. So Kobe's in there, Elon Musk is in there in the first.
Op we did. I had Putin in there. But I also had Nadya tolokonnikova. Who is the founder of Pussy? Riot for all our listeners, who might not know a lot about Pussy Riot. They were the feminist punk rock group, who stood up against Russian excessive, nationalism, and fought for women's rights. Lgbtq rights with quite provocative demonstrations. Consequently. They were put in a siberian prison for two years and I
Them two weeks after they were released from prison. It came straight to New York, came to my studio, especially as I had been the guy that worked with Putin. And I want to tell you something that ties up this whole narrative during their trial, which was a real interesting situation, these three young women were put in a cage, like, wild animals to show the world. That's how the administration treated them. And during the trial, Nadia the
Founder. She was constantly making little scribbled notes on a scrappy piece of paper, towards the end of the trial. The judge said to her. I'd like you to stand up and make your closing statement. So Nadia stood up, still in the cage. Clutching her piece of paper, took a deep breath and nervously read from her notes. And she knew by this point that they're going to be sent to prison and they're going to be sentenced any minute. And she read
A statement that I believe will go down as one of our Generations greatest speeches. And if I may, I'd love to read you just one line, please. And as I'm reading this to you, she said this nearly 10 years ago. I want you to think I want all your listeners to think about what we're all going through right now in history, and how it applies to everything we do. And she said, I wouldn't give people labels. I don't think there are winners or losers.
Losers, here, injured parties, or accused. We just need to make contact to establish a dialogue and a joint search for truth to seek wisdom together to be philosophers together, rather than stigmatizing and labeling people. This is one of the worst things we could do. One of the worst things we could do, mate is to judge each other. So my project I love you. I hate you was all about this judgment.
How do we suspend it for a few moments so that we can analyze and have a respectful debate about the challenges we face. So for those people who bought one a while ago, all those who were on the fence? I might buy one. I might not that cheap. I made them cheap affordable for everyone. This thing is going to grow and I'm tapping into a 30-year Archive of Game Changers. That's all I'm about to start putting together the third round, which
We'll have people like Alexander McQueen Will Smith. Wow, Marilyn, Manson Madeleine Albright Professor Stephen Hawking, which is the last photograph taken of him before he passed away. Wow, Steven Spielberg Sotomayor Justice Sotomayor and he leave of its his I will be in there. So she'll be watching you. Wow, and I'm Sushi, which is a very interesting one. So I'm going to keep putting these out and every time I do it, I'm debating.
Myself, I would probably sell them for a lot more money if you knew who you were buying, so I'm debating whether the third round. I should tell everyone who they're going to buy and just see if it makes a difference. But I do love the provocation of suspending judgment temporarily and playing with that.
I love that too. That's just so much fun. Well, when does the third round go out? By the
way? I'm just starting to piece it together now, so I don't have a date, but I hope it will be in the next.
Few months.
Yeah, we'll definitely let everyone on our newsletter. Know I would say the reveal. I think that's that. Yeah a fun piece and I think we can get a lot more because I'm looking at how many were sold that it seems that probably a lot of the nft community. Just didn't hadn't heard about this, right? Because they're relatively low numbers of mints that you did initially on these.
What's interesting for me mate, is the seen so much in my life. I've seen revolutions, literally begin.
I've seen Obama at the very beginning before he had any Authority, any support. He was just a guy saying I'm going to run. I was in the car with John McCain. I was in his limo when he first made the first call saying he's going to run for president. I've been in Egyptian revolution and I've literally seen people try to rebuild a fairer Society in front of me, in tahrir square, of course, it didn't work in the end, but I saw the fledgling.
Moment when you feel democracy is trying to reach the sun like a little leaf, you know, so I'm very comfortable at the very beginning of something. And as I say, I don't measure success of something by how much it sold, or how famous it was. I measure something of how important it is and does it start a spark that respectful debate will flourish? Hopefully because of this spark, so
So that's what's interesting to me. And that's why I'm enjoying. The fact that this started from scratch. As you say, it's a brand new technology. The community is just figuring out what's going on. And I think I'm very comfortable at this early stage and that's why I like provoking. You know, people said to me. Oh, no, you should reveal who they are because I want to buy Kobe Bryant. I want to buy George Clooney. I want to I want to buy Prince but that's not the point of it. The point is, it's luck.
And as is with all our leaders, we think we've got a great leader until we discover, they were corrupt and then we see someone who has a checkered past, but turned out to do something, great to and then other people are all good and other people are all bad. It's all mixed up. The Human Condition is really complicated. We're all really complicated. And I mean if we can have these discussions we can start to understand ourselves a little bit better rather than slinging mud at each other and
Passing quick judgments. So this project is going to carry on going. I'd like to take it to a hundred names in the end. And I'm planning eventually a giant Symphony of all of them together, which is going to be, that's going to be the big one. So, all those people who didn't buy will regret it, when this thing keeps on going. I keep thinking, I wish I'd bought Bitcoin at the beginning in that first meeting, you know, this is going to be like one of those, I hope.
Yeah, I mean that the one thing is a
As a collector, putting my collector hat on for a second. In the nft world that I always tell this audience to look for is when you're in the nft space and you're in all of these different chat rooms on the discords and everywhere else. It's very hype oriented, right? Where they'll say. This is the hot thing you should buy this now because you're going to make X number of dollars, right? And to me, that is the absolute thing. You should be running away from you have to evaluate. Well, a couple checkboxes for me. The first checkbox is
Is the most important one is. Do you love the art like to do love? This is something that speaks to you in a way that it doesn't matter what the value is. It could be worth a dollar or could we were the hundred thousand dollars and you're still willing to put it up in your house or have it someplace that you can enjoy? And I think that is the most important one to check and then the second piece. I really like what you're doing in that, it's not about that quick Buck. It's about what type of movement and conversation are you sparking?
Owned, what your creation is. What have you done there? Like, I love this quote that you said earlier. We said great art is the artist speaking from the heart like that to me. I had to write that down immediately because if you can see that that is what I want to collect is. When I see that truth and that Honesty coming through that artwork. Am I missing any other others that you would add on to that?
You know, I think everything you're saying is, right. It's a time when we are all going to have to
To be authentic and that takes courage because you have to take away all those distractions that are constantly bombarding. You we all know this feeling of constant anxiety, sensory overload, and we're all distracted by all the challenges we face whether it's in our personal life or our professional life right now. Everything is amped up to number 11. Yeah, but what we have to do to rebuild this world is to be able to look at ourselves first.
And think about what we really have in our heart and in our mind, what is that balance? We inherently know the difference between right and wrong. We know that, you know, this is how we recycle our garbage. We know that if we buy that bottle at the airport that you've used it for 30 seconds drunk, the water and then bend it and that plastic stays there forever. We know so for us to change its going to have to be an action that is going to be
Disruptive to our lives, but with that positive action comes something magical a sense that you're part of something beautiful that you played a role that you were involved. And that's a good feeling and that's something that no one's really talking about. And I know what power is, I've faced more power than most people and I've been in the presence of the most powerful. The most famous people in the world for a long, long time, and I've seen the reality of it, but I've also seen very
Intimate close contact with people who've been robbed of power who showed great courage in the face of adversity and even when they're facing such adversity, they dare to show kindness for others, that is real power. Because to be a great leader, you have to think of yourself, not as a person of Fame Authority, success Financial strength, you have to think of yourself as a servant, if you want to know what is to be powerful. Do something that helps someone.
Else and the feeling you get is just extraordinary and I'm speaking from experience. I've seen so many beautiful people who have lost everything and yet they even reach out to me and they ask me how I'm doing. I'm doing fine, but they still care about the people around them. That's extraordinary. That makes me feel like things. We're going to work it out. It's not going to be easy. It's going to be bumpy, but in the end, we're going to work together.
Because it's innate. It's in us as human beings. I remember, when I've photographed Zuckerberg. I was waiting for him in his office at Facebook headquarters. I know he's changed his name now, so I don't know whether the name changes but the morality stays the same, but I was in his office. I was waiting for him and there was a poster, they had their headquarters, which stopped me in my tracks and the poster red.
What would you do if you weren't afraid? It's one of the most powerful questions we'd ever. Dare to ask ourselves. Would your life be different? Would your career path. Be different with the relationships in your life, be different and don't think for a moment. Make that I would dare talk to you today as if I've got the answers. Because if I'm honest in front of you, I've got to confess. Fear has always played a part in my life, you know, people might think I'm a bit full of myself sometimes, and I would say,
Or maybe my lack of modesty covers up, my lack of confidence, but what's really interesting is that we need to start asking questions of ourselves and those around us, particularly our leaders, in business, and in politics and say, what is the question of our time? Are you a disrupter? Or are you an innovator? Are you driven by optimism and empowerment? Or are you just profiting from?
From our fear of changing our confusion. These are Big questions. I don't have any answers. I've just got questions. In fact, the more I think, I know more confused, I get as a person because I don't really know all these answers to anything like this. I just got questions and I'm going to keep asking them. And the work that I put out is really nothing but a series of questions. I'm putting back into society and enjoying the debate that we all
have. I mean, if you
Think about it. That is what needs to happen because the second we become Static and immovable and stop asking questions. Then, nothing can really change or happen or we could cement it in our ideas and beliefs and thinking, and it doesn't allow us to have that flexibility to evolve.
There was a little girl, I photographed recently, who is an absolute, inspirational leader. She's now 1415, but I photographed her, when she was 11.
Her name is Naomi wadler, and she's a student activist and she fights for the rights of black girls in America. She's a formidable public speaker and I invited her in a mom to my studio, to talk about the gridlock that we're all facing in society. And and I asked her genuinely how someone of her age. What advice could she give us? Grown-ups about navigating, a future path? She said something amazing. She said, talk with people don't talk at them.
Listen to them, don't just hear them. And then I said, how can I a middle-aged white man be of service to your cause and she looked at me and she said is easy stand with us not in front of us. Hmm. These are very powerful messages that were sent to me and they meant something to me. And so I try to pass them on and if they meant something to me, they just might mean something to someone else.
And this technology that we're all talking about is an amazing tool. And our job is to deploy that technology to drive positive change. There will always be a Temptation for this to go in the wrong way, but we have to constantly correct ourselves and try to evolve and be humble about our mistakes and be optimistic and resilient about our hopes. And I'm an optimist and I think we're going to work it out.
I'm an same camp. I'm also an optimist. I think that this is a been a fantastic conversation. Before we wrap things up. I want to make sure I've covered everything on there and of T front. So it sounds like you're next drop of the I love you. I hate you project is going to be in the next like two to three months. Yeah,
it's 8 to my friends at Legend and you know start looking in a date for the next drop, which will be really exciting and know that this is just, we're going to keep on doing.
These exhibition drops, I call them until I've reached a hundred names and then I'm going to do a symphony of everyone together and then
these enemies slightly as well. How do you create that
effect? Yeah, we brought them to life, which is really interesting because something that I've experienced when I'm this close to someone is that if I say something to them, that either touches, a nerve, makes them defensive accidentally or inspires them.
There, I tells me what's going on and I had this debate with James Comey about which of us would be a better interrogator because obviously head of the FBI, former head of the FBI. He's gonna know how to interrogate someone. But I was telling about the things I see, and it was a really interesting conversation. We had, I can tell when I've stimulated. Someone's thoughts and feelings, more importantly, feelings and it normally shows in their eye and
Because I'm so close to them. I'm feeling they're breathing their pulse and I'm watching their Iris move, as I'm focusing on their eyelash. I'm aware of something. I'm feeling is that frequency? Again, that's what I wanted to do as an artist to bring back that sense that these eyes are alive. And in many cases, someone's passed away. Like Professor Stephen Hawking you feel that his eye is still alive. It's kind of beautiful or menacing.
If it's someone that's abused their Authority, either way history doesn't really die. People like me, try to capture it and my job has always been to try and cure society's Amnesia and remind you that this person was there for better or worse. Mhm. So we're going to keep on building but there will be a giant Symphony at the end when all the eyes are working together as a giant community and I hope it will be something.
A, when you look at this artwork is going to give you the feeling of what it was like to be alive in the last 30 years. The website doesn't show you
how to collect them on the secondary market right now, but I'm assuming, they'll just show up on open sea or some of the other platforms or
yeah, I guess.
I'll make sure to get the links from your team and put those in the show notes here so that people can go and find them where
we'll start working on another project, which I'm not really ready to talk about. But as I get closer to that, I'd love to let
You know what we're doing with
that. Absolutely. That's so that's
that's going to be another huge project that I'm just really, really excited about. And as I say, this is not about metrics on the other camp. This is about stimulating. Those thoughts, those debates within ourselves, with our friends, with our colleagues, to think about the challenges we face. And how do we rebuild a world? That's more inclusive. That's Ferrer.
That works better more efficient. So it's a really exciting time. I want to be in the front line of it. I love it. So we've got things to do. And it's a great privilege to say that we were part of something, no matter how big or small, we were part of something. And when our time is done, I want to look back and say, well, I did something. I feel good about it. Yeah. I don't want to be filled with regret. I've seen so many heads of state and government. They look back at their time and you can tell they've got regrets.
It when they think about their legacy and we still have a chance to shape our Legacy right now. That's really exciting. Very humbling, very intimidating. Sure, but we are extraordinary human beings. When we put our mind to it. I'm an optimist. So I think we'll be fine.
Plato, and thank you so much for being on the show. What a fantastic way to end it in. You know, I'll say it again. You said earlier, great art is the art of speaking from the heart. So thank
Thank you for for speaking from the heart with me today.
Thank you. And thank you for sharing what you've built which is extraordinary. I'm very honored to be on your show and there's much I can learn from you. So I'm really excited about becoming your friend and learning because it's a journey that I've got to go. I've got to know stuff that I don't know, you know, stuff that I don't know.
Oh, we're in the same camp. It's a never-ending journey of learning. Right? And the journey. Yeah. I'm
really humbled to be.
On your show. Thank you for having me and let's be friends and do some great things together. Yeah,
we'll have you come back on when you get it when you have new projects to announce as well because it's you know, you have many decades now in experience in terms of like your professional career as a photographer, but you're just getting started on the nft front. So I'm really excited to see you already dreamed up one, really fantastic mechanic around doing the reveal Post photo or post sale, which I think is awesome. So I'm curious really curious to see what else you have in mind.
So it'll be fun to collaborate and chat about that stuff.
Well, as Ali said to me, as I was leaving his house. He said, let's shake up the world, but let's shake it up together. That was cool in a very humble way. I'll say the same thing to you.
Fantastic. All right, dude, great to work with.
All right,
that is it for this episode. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you would like to help us out head on over to prove got XYZ and click on the reviews button at the very top and leave us a five star review. Thanks so much. Take care.
R.
