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episode.
I think a lot of people tend to do not say what's right in front of them. Right? I say something when I have someone trying to shut me down by insulting me or calling me bossy or outspoken. That's when I go full in. That's when I know I'm winning the situation.
I'm Carly's a chicken. I'm Danielle Weisberg. Welcome to skim from the couch this podcast is where we go deep on Career advice from women who have lift it from the good stuff like hiring and growing a team to the rough stuff like negotiating your salary and giving or getting
Hard feedback. We started the skin from a couch. So what better place to talk it all out then where it began on a couch.
Hey everyone, it's Carly today. Kara Swisher joins me on skimmed from the couch. She has been called the most feared and well-liked journalists in Silicon Valley. Cara has been covering the tech world for decades and is also the co-founder of the site recode. She's currently the host of to podcasts Sway and pivot Kara. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Welcome to skim from the couch. Thank you. There's no couch though. That's true. Well, welcome from my kitchen.
First question. We asked everybody skim your resume. I'm really old you really want my resume. Okay, I went to Georgetown University. I went to Columbia journalism school. I worked for lots of people in very low level jobs, like delivering mail the Washington Post and being assistant people were journalists type people and then I got an internship The Washington Post which I then got hired from and then I worked there and then worked at the Wall Street Journal wrote a book during the 90s about the beginnings of the internet, which nobody was
As paying attention to and then I worked for the journal for many years doing a wide range of things beat reporting columns. And then I started sort of an entrepreneurial activity inside the journal which was a conference and then a new website that blog essentially I started their first real blog effort, which was allthingsd and then I left and got Investments and started recode sold that to VOX media and then I now also host I started doing podcasting about five six years ago early on and then
Did a lot to that and writing for the New York Times and doing a podcast, but I also do a podcast for New York Magazine to so I do podcasting and writing now and events but no events now with Copan, so I would say it's fair to say you're pretty busy. What is something that people don't know about you that they'd be surprised. I spent a lot of time with my family. I mean, I'm really busy. I make a lot of content I do for five podcasts a week major podcast a week and I also wrote a column every week and so I work a lot but I actually spent a lot of time with my family.
Lee and I just had another child a little girl, so I spent a lot more time with my family than I think people would imagine given how much content I make don't congratulations on the new baby. So before we dive into your career, I want to go back and understand a little bit about where you came from which is what was little Kara Swisher like the same the same the same the same. I mean, I think I had a very strong personality from the get-go as especially as a girl where people want you to shut up. Essentially I didn't shut up.
Much. I had a nickname tempesta. My family's Italian, which is I think it's a compliment. They don't think meant it as a compliment but I would always sort of up end things too. If I didn't like them. I did very well in grammar school. I was considered very very smart. I read very early people caught up with me pretty quickly, but I always had knew what I wanted. Did you get that from your parents know my dad died when I was really little and he was very sweet actually had a very sweet personality my mom. No, I don't think so. I think my mom talks in Shades a lot. She doesn't say what she
Means a lot of the time and I was very forthright. You know, I don't want to make you can't make sort of like Italians are loud but we are kind of a very in-your-face family. So we say what we think but I think my mom talks more and as most people do they say things that that's not what they mean and I'm much more I say exactly what I mean when I say something so, I don't know how I got it. I just did when did you realize you wanted to be a journalist? Not for a while. Actually. I was I went to the school of Foreign Service at Georgetown, which is for diplomats and spies essentially, so I wanted to
You go into the military. My dad was in the military and I wanted to serve but I wanted to do ROTC and everything else did I didn't because I was gay at first it was illegal and that it was don't ask don't tell which was even worse in some weird way which is just in so it's sort of like, you know separate but equal kind of thing though that was worth much worse, but it still wasn't it was not it was civil rights violation. I think of gay people so I didn't want to serve by lying like keeping it to myself. I thought that was stupid and so I never served and by the time they sort of
Of upended I was too old. I was going to serve in the reserves, but I I just didn't want to just lie eyes I was like this is ridiculous. And so I would have had a career I suspect in Military and probably running the CIA right now, but I'm being fired by Trump at this moment, but I wanted to be in Military Intelligence or in the CIA in some in some fashion to be an analyst and which is what I kind of do. Anyway, I kind of analyze and try to find out information and then have an opinion about it. How did you find your niche in technology journalism? I think you are very much known for.
Spoken a lot about developing relationships with people before they become the names that we all know was really a world that was about to explode but you were there in the beginning right before it did yeah, I think I just was lucky to be placed there and to recognize what it was and you have big student of history history was a big part of my education. And so I spent a lot of time understanding history of people like Henry Ford or Thomas Edison or all kinds of Adventures. I was very aware of inventors and entrepreneurs and how technology
his shift through time. I was always interested in technology shows whether it was radio to TV or anything to radio two horses two cars and things like that. So it's always super interested in that. And so I think I saw before a lot of people what was happening with the digital Revolution pretty early. I could jacket it really recognize it especially when the web first started with the world wide web and then the browser when I saw the Netscape browser, I understood the tools you needed for each part to work. So I was paid a lot of attention to how things come apart. And so I think a lot of people didn't you know, and
When I was early in my career, I worked for a newspaper The Washington Post and I covered retail and I wanted to shift over to digital when I met the AOL people because I was like, oh this is going to change how we communicate there's a world wide web of information. This is just what we talked about in Star Trek or Star Wars or whatever. And so I really I leaned into it especially mobile phones. I was really interested in the idea of a computer in your hand. I think I really did see the turn. I think there's moments in history where you see turns like right now. There's a turn happening. I pay a lot of attention.
Kind of patterns which I would have done if I had been a military intelligence because I would have done scenario building. So I think I spent a lot of time watching watching major secular turns essentially when you think about some of the people that became leaders that you started following and developing relationships with early on in those days like who stands out to you the most all of them, there's technology then there's a new technology which was the internet like that's a very different technology than you know, you needed the computers and the chips and everything else and I didn't really cover that. I was aware of it and I understand I knew
The until people and Bill Gates. I had spent a lot of time covering the trial and everything. So I was that was about power and too much power and I had met Steve Jobs and everything but I really was focused on the internet people because that was the area that I think people were treating like technology and I thought as a societal shift like the invention of the cotton gin or the invention of you know, mechanized manufacturing it was like, oh this is going to change everything I so I spent a lot of time meeting all the people and they weren't being covered by anybody all the all the boys were covering like chips.
Oops, and I was like who cares the car is what's important not the engine the engines fine sure, but they'll come up with no noses. Where does the card do and so I was very focused on what it does versus How It's Made because I didn't think that how it made made a difference like it will if something is going to Prevail as it always does and then one of them is going to take over and so I spent a lot of time meeting the people who are creating the internet whether it was Jeff Bezos who is always impressive to me from the very beginning very driven much older than most of the entrepreneurs actually at the time.
Marc Andreessen who invented the Netscape browser Jerry Yang who was at Yahoo! All of them. Just I met all of them. It's a Google guys, which was a next iteration. They weren't the first ones. I met them in the garage. I met you know, they are being be guys. I took him out for coffee because they couldn't afford it, you know in when they started their business. So I made of my point when I saw something interesting to meet the founders most of the time and I continue to do that, you know, the ruber people and even today I pay a lot of attention to whoever I just did an interview
with the Cameo guy because I think it's interesting. So I think the democratization of celebrity is interesting. So I just tend to try to go meet the people who are involved in the things. I'm covering and early on early on typically. How did you get them to trust you? I just called them. I mean the problem with most journalists is they're incredibly shy I just call people or I contact them by DM or whatever was there wasn't dming of course back then but I call them and I go visit them. I think most people don't do that. I know it sounds dumb, but I don't go there with
Store in my necessarily, although it's helpful. When you work for the Wall Street Journal. It's one thing to you know, have the courage exciting. You're right. Like a lot of people actually are very shy and one of the things we talked a lot about on the show is the, you know, no matter what profession you're in the idea of cold calling somebody the fear and getting over that. I think that's how you make the first move. But how do you actually get these people who we all know what they became, but you met them before they became that thing. How did you get them to trust you? Well, I just call them and have discussions.
Russians they one thing that I have that they don't have is I know all of them and they only know themselves. So one of the things I had was a linkage between, you know, Mark Zuckerberg the interested in Elon Musk, but he doesn't get to hang out with me maybe unless they're friends but they're not and I hang out with and I hang out but I talked to Elon Musk and then job arose look good. What's he like or you know, I met him I think he's trained or whatever whatever they happen to say about each other. And so that was one of the things I knew them all versus them knowing sometimes they knew each other, but often they didn't orphan.
No to actually I mean they meet in some you know, how celebrities need sort of this sort of fake way, but I think I have relationships with all of them. And so and I spent a lot of time understanding what they do, but I don't spend a lot of time kissing up to them either. I try to have cogent and intelligent conversations with them without becoming Fanboy a lot of the reporters who covered technology really just for Fanboys and Boyd underscore boys. It was all white boys essentially most of them and they wanted to make God's out of these.
People and I just was interested in them as figures historical and economic figures. And so I think I was pretty straightforward with them. It's interesting when they that feared in liked I think that's fine. I don't think I'm feared particularly unless you do something wrong then you I guess I'm scary but that the reason you should be scared is because you did something wrong not because I know about it. You have a reputation as like a really really good at what you do and like did like not just really good like the best at what you do. Yeah, but you should only be scared if he did something wrong like I think I'm
With people and that's very different. I don't think I'm scary. I think I'm honest like I don't like this. I think this is wrong and then like I wrote a column this week about the Halo the Amazon Halo device which of course records your tone and I'm like, I don't like this and here's why now, if you're Jeff Bezos reading that you could be mad about that or it's just okay, that's a point of view. I listen to like any intelligent person if you're if I'm fairly giving my point of view after years of experience should listen to it. The idea of true Candor is something that some people
find really refreshing and some people find scary to your point. I think one of the things that we talked a lot about on the show is management style how to find yours and how to give feedback and I think we talked a lot and have talked a lot about the past around how to bring Candor to work in a way that brings people along. How is Candor worked for you and has it also worked against you it hasn't I just I don't I think I don't buy that. I mean if people don't like it, they don't like it and then they're going to use that as an excuse. Well, you know, they're idiots.
I
think we're good. People confuse is saying anything you think and it not being informed with Candor, right? Like if you're ill informed and you say something you're just an idiot like welcome to President Trump, right? He just says things that are stupid or lies or whatever and so, you know, that's not candy. No that people like I like how he tells it like it is I said we tells it like it is is not accurate like that's really irritating to me. So I don't particularly like tell it like it is people if they're telling you stupid things or lies or things like that, but I think if people are very clear
Hear about what one thing. They what they want what they need what they think I don't see any Plus in doing anything but that at work and I've never seen a downside to it and the people who hold it against me for telling the informed truth, which is informed by experience or reporting or whatever. Well, they can go stick it. I don't really care like it hasn't hurt me. It just hasn't I'd it's I just never does because I know of what I'm talking about and I think smart people recognize that men or women, I think.
And spent a lot of time editing themselves in ways that are that do they don't like I think about it I think about a lot because I'm gay and so I became came out at a time when it wasn't good to be gay. Now. It's much better. It's not great for everybody certainly, but it certainly was terrible then and I was just talking about this with someone there was a movie which is a rom-com with Kristen Stewart. It's cute, but actually people who were closeted back then I had a real problem with that movie and not because I didn't think it's delightful but what her girlfriend did
oh, her had happened to me and I was like that wasn't cute and I wouldn't forgive it. You know what I mean at the time and of hiding hiding in plain sight and so I think when you're like that you don't care what people think you like if you've had enough of that and so whatever you are whether you're shy or outspoken or wherever you're hiding yourself never works it never works for you in a career and I know people think it does they've got to be Sly or strategic it just they can see you coming. It's the best way to be I know I don't tell everybody everything.
I'm going to do but I certainly find hiding yourself to be one of them are negative characteristics and career. I think that's really really important advice. My next question was going to be around how you created innovation in the places that you worked with George at the time very traditional places that were not known for Innovation. What Washington Post Wall Street Journal and in each of those places you were able to really carve out a name for yourself by not hiding yourself. I would love to one here a little bit about how you did that in those places.
And then how you actually would advise others who are working no matter what the industry in in a more traditional environment to innovate. Well, it's interesting because I think a lot of people tend to do not say what's right in front of them, right? Everyone sees an awkward situation and no one says anything and everyone looks down like but nobody says anything I say something I'm like, no, that's terrible. And I remember being in a meeting at the Wall Street Journal what they want to do is Saturday journal and I was like why we want more print Publications everyone's like well, we're here to talk about that. I'm like, but your
Asking the question why we want it why not plow all that money into digital because that's where everything's going. And here's my proof. You know, I was making proven case but I never was like Cara just being outspoken as usual and like yeah, my being outspoken with informed opinions and that moment where they say Caribbean out smoke is where people shut up and that's where I don't shut up when I have someone trying to shut me down by insulting me or calling me bossy or outspoken. That's when I go full in that's when I know I'm winning the situation and so I think one of the things that I try to do is if
If I try to develop a point of view, that's what that's what entrepreneurism is. It is a point of view and then I have the guts to do it like and I have the guts if it doesn't work to be okay with that if it doesn't work, I then examine it and why it doesn't work and most of the things when they don't work. There's something I didn't do execution Ali right? But I have a theory of something whether it's we need to get into blogs back in the 2000s or we need to get into digital media right away or podcast sure are interesting and now that
Aces are all in place. That was my theory. My second theory was people are tired of the Twitchy world. I'm going to make a long podcast. I'm going to make an interview podcast because people are tired of Twitchy cable Twitter conversations. They want substantive conversations. We that was another theory. That's when I didn't change and then I rounded I tweaked around the edges where I put it on and moved when it felt necessary to move or when I played out that particular thing and I think really good entrepreneurs have an ability to come up with a theory of
Of whatever. They're making whether it's a dating app or whatever it is. Whatever the product happens to be and then tweak it along the way and I think that's really important to recognize that you can continually shift and change and I don't mind leaving things behind. I just did it again. I do it all the time in my career. I'm like now I'm going to go over the the New York Times and do this. And guess what? I'll have another one what I don't know when just when I you know, like it's that Mary Poppins thing when the wind changes all be gone. That's the kind of way. I look at my career and then I'll do something else that pleases me and makes me happy and makes
You feel passionate about what I'm making. When did you realize you were an entrepreneur or early on when I was a reporter a lot of reporters very happy just to do stories and I was like when I covered retail, I'm like boy or newspapers screwed because you know, all these retailers were dying. There's one called heck and jurors not in existence anywhere. I covered all these so and I saw all the financial troubles and then I was like, huh? This newspapers business is based on this stuff. That's a problem. Like I was thinking about the business I was in and then I would go classifieds. Wow.
They suck. They're printed what there's Craigslist. Hey, like I would spend a lot of time like seeing the impact. I think a lot of people don't do that. They don't know nothing about business and I was always interested in the media business like and how it could be upended because my salary dependent on and it's a Time.
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So Danielle, and I when we started this game, I think also had business interests and we were on a journalism path, but we're trying to figure out how to marry the business interest with the journalism path, you know at the time and we would go for informational interviews like the advice we got was like you're going to have to leave here leave where you're working like go to business school or start, you know, start something on your own but like you're never going to get it done here. What's interesting to me is that you eventually did like start something on your own but at the time like you were in
Eating within the big company a couple times I should have left I should have left. I was being too safe in that case, but it wasn't a bad idea because then I could like I work with Walt Mossberg, right? So that was the better part and that the time he's retired since but the time he was at the peak of his power in terms of tech. So is a perfect person to be linked with you can make things inside of companies as long as the leadership allows you to in at the time at the Wall Street Journal Paul Steiger and some other people were very open to us doing that largely because they didn't want us to leave and they saw our energy and
ownership and then we made money and we made a lot of money. And so that was good to you know, one of the things I say a lot of attention to is making money like it whatever I do. I'm like I'm going to make some money like so podcast make a lot of money I never was like, oh, how can you make money in Pockets? I'm like, go ahead don't do it. I'm making money over here. So I don't really listen to the general idea of what things are. Like, I remember podcast don't make money. I'm like yours don't but mine do like, you know, maybe you're not the rethinking it through correctly so I don't
To take conventional wisdom. That's another thing but I think you can do entrepreneurship from anywhere as long as you have a management that allows it that lets you be like at vaux. They let me create podcasts and I'd had the first podcast which is me and an intern a closet, but then now they have a big business but the willingness to let me do that shows great for sites by Jim bankoff. Another's there. You have said that you are not a good employee terrible. What do you mean by that? I don't like to listen.
The bosses. I'm not a difficult employee. That's very different. I'm not like obstreperous for no good reason. I just I want to do things on my own and I don't want someone to tell me what to do and I recognize that early in my life that I don't like being told what to do and I don't mind making mistakes if I do it on my own. So those are two things if you want to do things on your own you have to not mind losing and you have to not mind failing. I had a few too many bosses who told me what to do who I thought were stupid and you know, you never know. What kind of boss sometimes you get a great boss, right?
But by the time you don't get a great boss like and you know better and so why should I listen to that person just because they're a hierarchy so I just wasn't respectful of the hierarchy and I prefer to find wisdom below me above me all kinds of places. Like I would find wisdom and all kinds of people that were unlikely, right? And so I think the way we structure workplaces is highly hierarchical. It's very male, you know, someone's on top some ones on the bottom and so I just don't like that and so I like to
Like I don't want anybody to tell me what to do. It's down. I just don't I don't prefer it. So, why do I never did like, oh, that's Eric and I'm like, well don't do it for yourself. Then I don't like none of your beeswax. What I do. What are you like as a boss? I'm okay. I'm okay. I don't love managing. I have to say I'm not bad. I'm not bad. I think people expect me to be this sort of main person. I'm not actually I think I'm actually quite Cooperative as an employee. I don't make I don't not particularly difficult unless it's like I don't like what you're doing here. And here's why
And I don't want to do that, but I don't throw fits. I don't yell. I'm not a yeller. I just don't like manage because I'm not that I'm not that a lot of management really good managers spend a lot of time developing and mentoring people and I'm not bad at mentoring but they want other people to excel. I'm interested in me excelling well, so when you're hiring someone are you looking for the quote unquote good employee know different things. I want. Here's what I'm looking when I'm going to be working with me, but I don't do any hiring any more like the people of the times hired my staff and I have to prove
Of of them, of course to see if I can work with him. If it doesn't work out I can express myself, but it's their job to figure out the management of those people and they know better than I do. And so I tend to give that away. I have this new Theory called staff zero. I want no staff whatsoever like love that I think you writing a book called staff zero. I think the best way to manage people is to is to be honest with everybody about what everyone's contribution is as I've thought about it like say you're working on a podcast with me or something like that. What are you contributing? That's really
Rate for the podcast and if you're contributing that that's great. If you're not we have to have a discussion, right? I think a lot of people sort of let things go and I think I don't I don't I'm like what are you helping here or what? Am I helping here, too? What am I contributing to this? And if I'm not contributing enough I try to get out myself and I think people should conduct their careers that way if they're not contributing or happy with what they're doing and going through the motions. I'd prefer them not to be there and I think they would prefer.
Her them not to be themselves not to be there. They're just doing it just to have a job and I accept that if you really need the money, but a lot of people have more choices than they think not today with this pandemic. It's going to be a slightly different situation. But once everything recovers, there's a lot more choices and people tend to stay in jobs. They don't like I'll never do that. I just leave I can wait tables if I had honestly I can't I'm good at it. How much of your decision-making is get driven versus data driven.
It's the balance. I think probably data like not fully data, but I recognize patterns first. And then I have a theory then I investigate the theory like I had an idea that people are sick of Twitchy cable driven bullshit aside a theory about that and I don't know I feel like that so I wonder how other people and I bet if I make something that's more substantive people will like it and then the same thing with pivot when we did pivot Scott Galloway. He was not the first choice to be the co-host.
I was right but I had a theory of that. We really had chemistry and he had real wisdom and I had him something different than him and we both sparked in just the right way and luckily I was at a place where they said. Okay, we're going to trust your instinct on this. So that was Instinct and also then I looked at the data when he came on my show. He was getting numbers as high as Elon Musk and I was like, huh people seem to like something here. And so I did it again and it was the same thing. And so am I the data confirmed my
And I guess if that makes sense, I think you have to have an instinct but then you have to support it by data and then change it based on the data you get and also change your instinctive movement. Who do you go to for advice? Not so many people anymore different people. It sounds dumb. Sometimes ask my kids things like everybody. There's wisdom everywhere right? Sometimes I asked my mom even though I don't respect a lot of some of our opinions about Fox News Etc. But but I Go Everywhere I Go to friends I go to bosses I go.
So people are above me I go to I'll go to very important people people always like someone was like, where do you think media is going on go? Let me call Richard plepler. I can I call you like what like I'm like, I'll just call him. I tend to like go to the top. How do you think airbnb's doing? I was like, oh well call Brian chesky and ask him. Does it register for you? That that's like that's unique that it is kind of crazy that you can just call Brian. No because I think a lot there Morrow people are more open. I'll talk to anyone who reaches out to me. Most people not every single by gotten hundreds hundreds, but if people give me
The call I tend to respond on Twitter and people are always shocked like you respond. I'm like well, why wouldn't I you had a good point like if they have a dumb point they want to say something dumb to me or lecture me. I like I'm like screw you but if someone want has a good point I'm like, oh that's really smart or that's interesting. And if most people who ask me and if I have time in a cogent way, I tend to answer you'd be surprised you can get through do I'm always like, oh, I'll try to reach that person when I try to find their email or their Tech and I text them and DMI good idea me the other day.
I wanted to know what how much revenue a company made and I sort of knew one of the investors and idea Mike. Hey, I'm doing this piece. I like to know the thing and he's like, I'd rather not tell you and I said, I'd rather you tell me and then I said I'm going to find out and then he told me he thought I could find him I could have by the way you have done throughout your career. Obviously even Drew Beetle as we're talking about a lot of rich and powerful people that have big jobs and don't have to say yes to an interview. Yes. They don't increasingly they don't but go ahead.
A lot of them have yes, they do. How do you get them to agree to an interview with you knowing that you have a reputation for holding their feet to the fire and that you know to your point like it's not you're not like inventing things that they've done or should talk about like it's real real stuff, but it's not a relaxing interview experience for them. I think smart people like smart conversations. I think they're bored in their minds about the talking points. Like look at Elon. Why would he come back? We argue all the time like he and I have had little Twitter Wars. I'd like he's smart he
It's to have a smart conversation. He doesn't mind mixing it up. Even when you don't agree. And sometimes that means we don't talk for three months. Sometimes we do like Steve Jobs was the same way. He kept coming back. We were not easy on him in those interviews and when most people looked him up and down but he liked a smart conversating. He liked disagreement, but he liked his agreement wasn't just to be disagreeable. Right? He liked more like but our theory is this and then he would argue it like but I think this and so I think smart people really unless you have an ego that and you just can't stand anyone to
Agreeing with you, which there are lots of people like that. I think most smart people like it on some level like I doubt Mars Rover will talk to me again because I tend to tends to say stupid things to me. But you know what? I think they're good for them. Honestly like you finally got to see what he thought about Holocaust deniers and then he pushed change his mind two years later. So I didn't think I did if you listen that there's not one second. I was unfair to him there. He had the ability he did he walked into it himself. I did not trick him. I was really clear. I re-read the transcript last night in preparation for
for this interview and what I was struck by you actually talked very little that's right. That was a trick. That wasn't a trick. That's why I thought if I could interject here and say you're an idiot. That would be helpful to me if I feel better, but let's have him talk. You spoke very little and I think the communication and interview style is fascinating. It was really fascinating to reread it last night of all of those kind of interviews does his stand out the most who stands out the most I think Mark and I have a really interesting report. I wish you would do another interviews many you've benefited many benefits from the interviews. He doesn't
Even though like the sweating being or the Holocaust deniers, he always managed but actually he actually has to try harder and you know most he has to try to easy. It's for date when he has those kiss-ass interviews. They're just so embarrassing for him and for the interviewer and I don't think I'm unfair to him. So I think I would like to talk to him. I'd love to talk to Jeff Bezos again. We used to talk all the time a million years ago. Now he doesn't need to talk to anyone. He's the richest man in the world who have you not interviewed that you'd like to he know I get everyone says you shouldn't read Trump, but I'm like, he lies all the time. So all you'd be doing is
he's checking lies in real time. Like no. I just I don't see any Plus in that unless you could just really stop him. I think my first question to me is what happened to you as a kid that you're like this that you constantly lie to yourself. I think just out-and-out say what happened to you. But you know, I think I would love to interview just different people. I'm trying think right now. I'm sort of interviewing all the people like today yesterday interviewed The two scientists who created the covid vaccine, you know, I interview people who interest me, huh? I like to interview the Pope.
I guess and I'm really interested in him. And I don't know I've never really read it interview. I felt like there's so much going on there that and so copies of complex personality. I think he'd be fascinating. Although I think there's a language barrier there. I certainly like to interview some like Angela Merkel. I think she would be fascinating. So it depends on the person like sometimes you just want to reveal someone in an interesting way other times you want an argument with them other times. You want to just have a fun time. Some people are just fun to interview, right? I'll tell you something I interviewed recently.
That I really enjoyed I like all my interviews but I always like going to be Hillary Clinton. She's a trip and not what you think. She is most of the time so I think I'd bring out the real Hillary Clinton a lot. I talked to her and I don't suck up to her either. She either gets sucked up to her attacked and she's much more complex than that, but I didn't know you'd Alexander venneman because I was you know, he look like my dad and my dad died when I was literally my dad was also a military person and I was wanted to know why someone did what they did. I think everyone sort of looked at him as this cartoon hero with
With you know standing there with the with the uniform everything and I wanted to know why he did it. Like why did he why why him and not someone else and so I really like that interview. I want to understand how someone could lose power. That way. He could have just said nothing and he didn't and I wanted to know why he did that. I was fascinated with him. You have two teenage Sons, but you also have a baby daughter. What are you like as a parent? And what has it been like juggling all of this in this?
Pandemic when you work as much as you do, I love being a parent. I think I'm a pretty good parent. I actually I make mistakes. I've made mistakes as the years but I think in general we're very close. I did my two sons I think are really wonderful young men. We've spent a lot of time me and my ex making sure they're yet wonderful you we think a lot about their privilege and not to like beat him over the head with it. But to be make them aware of the luck they've had in their life and also that they have a responsibility as young privilege men to really think very hard about that and other
People and so we try to we've tried to do that. I just love spending time. We spend so much time together. We just last night they were we made dinner, but they were sitting we have a small room in my someone. I just got married again, but we're not rooming. They're all they're all they're lying on the bed with us with them. You know, we're like it was really adorable. They want to be around us and I really like that we didn't have to make them or anything else. They just enjoy being together, but they're also very independent. So the two boys are very independent and I try to show interest in
In what they're doing I try to get them to learn how to disagree well together when they say things I want them to prove what they're saying. I want them to really spend a lot of time thinking hard when they say things because they can say a lot of stuff and everyone just lets them and with the daughter it's interesting because one of the things that's great about her is she's just got a lot of confidence you can tell like when you have kids they have genetically there certain way they really are and then you can stress that stuff or not, but she's very confident and I was thinking as I was watching her being really
- and she loves them and they're great with her, you know, so that's really a delight to watch was that when is that going to get taken away from her? I just was thinking about that like who's going to make her think she's not as confidence the way she wanders through life now is completely confident and it's her nature nature is confident and happy and I was like, I have to think really hard with a girl like I'm going to have to think how can I stop people from taking what is clearly an asset and making her feel like
Like it's not an asset. I remember someone saying to me. How come you shouldn't be so confident? That's what someone told me when I was a little girl and I was like well too bad. I remember that don't be so bossy. I remember the you know that kind of stuff and so I'm thinking really hard about how to keep that with her. And the other thing is she's really quite adorable. And so everyone is always like, you know, you're so beautiful like you and you could see her respond to it because she gets smiles a lot because she's quite beautiful little girl and I'm always like well, she's smart like I don't want her to get by
And looks and sounds dumb. But I'm like, wow, it's fascinating to watch just as it was when my younger kit my younger kid. He happened to like the color pink when he was a kid and he got knocked out of him. Like I remember we lived in San Francisco for goodness sake but it was like one day he like the color pink and the next day. He just couldn't like it like it was and I sort of was like I felt sorry for boys, like it didn't mean he was kept going, you know, India's India's favorite color the whole nation of India loves the color pink and orange and
If like that, and so I was trying every way but it was sort of interesting how they move very quickly and to gender roles. We're in San Francisco like a even here. They understood that like one was like I can't look at Princess movies. I can't and I was like why you like them before like, you know, it had things wrapped up in being gay which they're not like it was like, you know, maybe being part of a family want to make sure they're not gay which I'm like, there's no correlation whatsoever, you know, scientifically, let me show you the studies like I thought about
When them and I was less worried about up with my daughter, I think about it a lot more like I will not have that taken away from her because she has it now and I don't want someone to steal her confidence or make her feel she has to hide it. Well, I think if there's a parent who can combat that I think it's you you're great. You're fantastic. I do tell my kids are great all the time. I think they feel they're great. I think parents don't do that a lot. They're very can be very critical of their kids. I'm not very hard on homework. I'm not very like you have to get A's, you know, as long as they're happy.
As long as I can argue with the teacher with enough information. Yeah, I want them to be smart. And that's it. And I don't care how it manifests itself. I'm going to move us into our lightning round last segment morning person or night owl and I do favorite quick dinner to make oh that's a good one salmon grilled salmon. What's the last show you binge-watched? Oh, I'm watching the crown again L. Do it was Queens Gambit obviously, but the crown I watched the Diana part and then I had to go back and watch the whole thing. I never watched any of them before.
Where I was like the British loyalty, but now I love Queen Elizabeth so much. I am obsessed with her. No, I love her. She's such a good egg. Like I like I don't know. It's all fiction. I like the whole gang of them. Yeah. I love all what's your toughest interview that you've done? Um, none of them. I don't feel very I don't think they're very tough. They use sometimes Bill Gates can be tough. He doesn't give a lot and he gets obstreperous. Probably President Obama.
I'll tell you why because that guy never gets doubted ever. He's so entertaining and Charming he try to figure out when you interviewed someone what will motivate them and I've realized pretty early on that anger if you make him mad or make him feel if you disagree with him you get a better response. So I kept disagreeing with him in the interview that he did not like that at all. It was so funny. It was in China. Of course. He didn't of course. He's a present he gets to say whatever he wants all the time and nobody disagrees and right before the interview. He was so funny. I got less time than
Our interviewers I got like 25 minutes versus 35, which is I don't think it's enough time to have a real conversation. And so I know it's a lot to talk to the present. But whatever I did they got 10 minutes more and so I leaned over to him right before and we were very close to each other and I said Hey listen, and by the way, some inner YouTube Star got 10 more minutes and I did which infuriated me and so I said listen, I got 10 less minutes and everybody else and you tend to go on when you talk and paragraphs and no one interrupts you but I'm going to interrupt
Up to you and I really liked it and you to be aware that I'm going to interrupt you and you're probably not used to that because everyone just lets you go on. He said I heard you were obnoxious and I said, yes, I am and then we went into the interview. It was great and it was good. It was a very salty interview in many parts because you know, he usually gets sort of pet in like everyone loves them and stuff and I don't dislike him. I just think that he deserves to have some disagreements. So that was good and then later I'll kind of just my ex worked for him as the CTO.
America Megan Smith and when any Administration ends you stand in a line and get a picture of the president. She made me come. She's like we have to have a family picture. I'm like, no, I don't want to go but I said, okay, I'll go for the kids. And so we walked in and the minute he saw me he was like, oh, how did you get in here? Like I said, hi good to see you and then my one son who's really a Boolean friendly said like he's like Louis your he's so he's so good Obama so good. He goes Lily. You're you're gonna be a chef. I'm gonna come to you.
Restaurant one day and he's like, yeah. Sure. Mr. President be great. You know, he does that kind of thing and then he turned to my other son who was very entrepreneurial actually and invents things and really creative and that might vary engineering mindset and he's like Alex I think, you know, you're going to create a company. I hope I can invest in it someday, you know and Alex goes I'll think about it and I was like, yes, and he goes out to your kid. I'm like, yes, he is. Why do you think you know as a parent now, especially why do you think it's important?
To have female leaders in your industry. Oh, well, there aren't any because there aren't any there aren't enough. There aren't any there aren't enough and the ones that aren't get side and look at the woman who was a CEO of Pinterest or just there's just you you can put them on your hands. There's a lot of the middle levels for sure, but I think there have there just aren't look at the numbers like it's just depressing when you think about it. You are known for having a great collection of Ray-Bans. Yeah. I have six pairs Oh, I thought there was more. Okay. Well, I was gonna say, what's your favorite pair there?
All the same they're all the same. They don't I have aviators. That's it. Why do you have sex because I bought a lot of them because they're a they're actually vintage and I saw them all at the same time and I bought I knew I would wear them. I'm like that with clothes. I wear the same shoes. I wear the same. I had by six of the same things. I'm like Steve Jobs Kara. Thank you so much. Thank you.
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