Welcome to the bubble the Andy slavitt and Zack. We have a great conversation today with Kumail. Nanjiani who is a comedian and an actor and he made a movie his own life story, right? Yeah that as striking similarities to the covid-19 world called the big sick. He is a delightful guy and we have a conversation about what life is like at home and what it's like living with someone who is
At risk for covid-19 and also Kumail has his own podcast with his wife. Emily called staying in with Emily and Kumail. Yeah, if you've listened to all of the in the bubble podcast from the beginning then you can listen to canals don't come out. I was actually really not only is entertaining guy you could tell from this conversation. What a wonderful guy he is and I think you find it very funny as well. So here's Kemal.
Are you recording Camille? I am
According.
Yes my mispronouncing your name said Kemal. Yes Kemal Kumail. Okay.
Yeah, like email Kamel
like email. Yeah Zach who's here is my 18 year old son was watching Silicon Valley late into the night last
night good. He's got good taste.
He does. He does his older brother at already washed it and you've got a number of people who think you're really funny guy in this house. We've course loved your movie, but let me introduce you to everyone. I think most people know you at this point.
I'm Kumail nanjiani a comedian right your comedian you'll admit to that. I'll admit to it guilty you made a movie about someone who gets a virus that then spreads
throughout her organs
and messes with her immune system you admit to that?
Yes, although it turned out to not be a virus. It was a autoimmune condition.
It's autoimmune condition. You're getting very sciency on me
now. It's like if we're doing a pot sure apply sure you about this.
You want the park?
Has to be factual I get
it. Listen, they thought it was a virus. So that's
true and then it while she was in a coma you decided to marry
her. Well, I yeah and then I ran it by her once she woke
up. Oh, yeah, that didn't go that well at the beginning.
Yeah. Well the The Proposal was not
enthusiastic right and you got very close to her parents beforehand which who in America can't relate to this situation. It's the most unrelatable.
Tuition on one level you made it into a highly relatable situation. I think you now you're making a podcast that really is about staying home which is fascinating and then part of the podcast is helping people who have trouble as a result of having to stay home. So maybe let me start there staying home. Does it have to suck
staying home doesn't have to suck. However, we're in such a weird time that the other thing that we try and communicate is it
It's okay to have days they do suck. You know, it's don't put too much pressure on yourself for anything sort of feel how you're feeling being intentional about how you're living your life. If you have a bad day, don't be too hard on yourself. That's sort of one of the main takeaways.
So what's the best ratio of non suck days to suck days.
I mean it would be, you know a million to 0 or a 0 to a million. Actually. I said it the wrong way that's not
realistic. You can't even have that not during the coronavirus
exactly. Well the other thing that's
To me now that happens more than it's ever happened is not just good and bad days. But within those days having multiple multiple good and bad days within each day a lot of ups and downs. You know, I'm not I'm fairly Lucky in that. I'm not someone who's ever had to deal with mental illness or depression or anything like that. But these last two months or the closest I've gotten to knowing what that would feel like not to downplay people who have actual who have those sort of diagnosed issues.
But I sort of know that feeling of absolute powerlessness that that sort of happens every now and then
it's scary. It's scary because you think you're turning on yourself, right? It's almost like worse than a physical ailment because you're like, oh my God, I'm the problem and I don't know how to solve it.
Well and the issue is there's a couple issues one is sort of the not knowing when this is going to end and the other one is not feeling that you're being taken care of right? Like I sort of feel like
If you're in a society, there's a contract right? There are certain things that I take care of. There are certain things that the people who are in charge take care of right and I would think a global pandemic is not something. Unfortunately that I can do very much about that wasn't on your list. It's not on my list. I'm doing my part. I'm staying in I'm wearing masks. I'm doing my part but there has to be someone with more infrastructure who's taking care of this and I like who owns this. I know exactly and I just feel
So I had a pretty good week last week where I was feeling. Okay, and then two things sort of hit me on the same day one was the estimate of death. God doubled and people's reaction was just so lacks that made me really really sad that people like we literally doubled the number of estimated fatalities from this thing and people were like, okay. Yeah, that's it. That sounds fine. The other thing that made me sad was this thought that I was like we've quarantined ourselves for
Months and the whole plan was to do that so that there would be there would be a plan in place by the people who are actually in charge of this and the thought that it seems like nothing or not enough has happened is
disheartening. Apparently, your expectations are way too high,
I guess so
no, it's like I mean if you did told me 15 years ago that there would be shootings in schools and in churches and we
It'd be like yeah, that's bad. That's really shouldn't happen. But you know and then just kind of go on I feel like the same things happening now. It's like yes, we had thousands of people died. But you know, a lot of them are in nursing homes and some of them are in jails and you know some of our meat packing plants so it's kind of like they're just numbers and I don't think that's how we all As Americans are reacting. I think it's like how it all comes together as a presentation.
I think some of it's gotta be a defense mechanism to because the
Ours are so staggering that the truly is no way to wrap your head around it. Right and at that point, there's just no way to process what's going on outside and how many people are affected by it.
But how much of it do you think is that it's a pretty good proportion of people that people don't feel are like them. In other words. They're people of color. They're older people. I don't know how much of this plays into it or not. But like I wonder if
If like this were afflicting people who own horses, you know, like if you own a horse farm or you know you if you have a race car, if you have three homes this really affects you and that scenario would we be responding differently to even smaller numbers of deaths?
I mean, I think you're right. I think that's a big part of it. If there's any way some how you can justify not being empathetic with that large number of group. I think people will find it. You know, once the number is so high is so staggering. You have two ways to go right one way you go.
Is what you suggested which is you sort of build up a wall. You say those people are not like made this doesn't affect me. This isn't my issue. I have to run my business make money all of that comes from Fear, you know, I think it still comes from Trader. I think a lot of the bad stuff we're seeing on a large scale in our country is coming from Fear so there's one way and then the other way is to go. Well, there's really no way I can wrap my head around what's going on outside, but I'm going to attempt to be empathetic have compassion.
And do the best I can I think those are sort of the two ways to
go do the best you can and help a little bit is it's a real tonic. I'm sorry. I mean just you can't affect the whole situation as you said it's a tons of wisdom in that but you know, what I can do is like this woman across the street who's scared to death who can't get a groceries or whatever you make someone laugh you call someone on the phone you haven't talked in a while and you're like you just done something.
Honestly, honestly, Emily says this helping people can also work as a selfish Act.
No, you actually feel better about yourself when you do that. So yes, he's right. Yeah Andy, this is the other thing. I just thought of you know, when you were talking about people who are affected and how certain people just don't seem to empathize with that for me. The big divide came when we saw those kids in cages when I saw those pictures. I was like, oh there is no way anybody can justify it. This this is a horrific sight. This is inhumane and everybody has to agree with it and
Then I saw all these interviews with people that were like, well, you know their parents brought him here. It's not our fault and when people were able to justify that I was like, okay now there's a very very clear we've just crossed the threshold and now I can't really expect anything anymore.
Yeah, like I don't know how people are going to look back on this era like, you know a couple centuries from now like I doubt they're going to call this like the enlightened age or the Progressive Era. This is maybe an era where we like woke up to some of the things that we've been doing for a long long time.
In this country, but it's also a period of time when we just kind of got little less embarrassed about doing some bad things and kind of being okay with
it. I think what happened is there obviously this is a very complicated issue. But one thing I've thought about a lot is, you know, you're in this situation is me to where we all had life without the internet then we had life with the internet and mostly positive aspects of it. And then now we're seeing sort of the negative sides of that right? I think what used to happen is if somebody had sort of
Fringe immoral views I'll say that the promise of the internet to me was or you'll be able to talk to people with different ideas different backgrounds. It's going to be like a very Democratic thing everybody's going to be able to really really engage in conversation with people who come from a very different place what's happened instead is we're just talking to people who already agree with us. So some of these things that you're saying people are less embarrassed about some of their ideas that they're less embarrassed about, you know in body.
God parroting I think part of it is because they're finding hundreds of other people online who agree with them and then suddenly when you have some crazy racist ideas and now suddenly there's 200 other people who are like you're right, you
know, that's a good insight and then you have great confirmation bias because like everybody I know thinks this way everybody. I know hates immigrants that must be the majority view right and then it's like I got a whole bunch of other people who are like, I don't know anybody like that what I try to do with very mixed success is to try to
And where people are coming from and not question their motivation in other words. Okay, you have a opinion that might objectively sound races now, I might meet you for five minutes and say oh that's cause you're racist that's might be easy. But it may be that you are supporting something that we would all maybe call structural racism or some of us would and yet something's driving you, you know that is in your experience set. That's not poorly motivated. I feel like that's a lot of work.
To do in a lot of people with list. This is how why do you even try but I feel like it's some level if we don't do some of that work and stop cursing half. The population is being evil intended that it will help. It's also just hard to go through life getting bored more amped up every
day. Yeah, you know Emily's exactly what you're saying. Emily is so good at that and it's take can't be infuriating. Well, I'll be like railing on someone saying something she said, well actually, you know, probably they're worried about this this fear. I'm like, yes.
I'm sure that's true. You know, I had this weird thing this was you know, I'm 42 now and I've been a people pleaser my whole life. I really care what people think I don't want anyone to dislike me and it was about like 10 15 years ago. I had this thought I was like my first grown-up change I decided to make was I was like just because I know why someone sucks does it mean they don't suck and that was a big grown-up decision. I was like I see this is coming from insecurity, but this person is still a jerk, so I'm not
It's not my problem. They need to deal with their issues. I don't need to see eye-to-eye with them. And that was a big grown-up thing boy. My Epiphany could not have been poorer time this right now. I can't like you said you can't live like that. He just like after yourself up over and over.
Hold on. I just got a DM from the White House don't go
anywhere.
You have somebody you love who is susceptible because of her immune system to coronavirus. So first of all, does that frighten you
yes, I mean we knew about this virus back in January, right? So it was something that I had been following because we don't have the luxury of being lacks about this because of Emily and so it's something that I've been following and then it was a few weeks before things got you know before
Basically the NBA shut down and Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson got coronavirus, which I see is sort of the turning point in the public perception of this thing, but a couple weeks before that. Nobody was taking it seriously and I had sort of been reading interviews with epidemiologists and all this stuff and I was like, oh this thing is coming here. It's gonna be a big deal. We have a weird few months in front of it. And right now is when we can do something to mitigate the eventual damage so but I felt like nobody was taking it serious
see my friends weren't taking it seriously and those two weeks were very very tough. I had the first panic attack I've ever had in my life. I was very very very scared and completely out of control and I've honestly never had a period like that where I felt like that like even when Emily was actually in her coma and she was in a coma for eight days and she was in the hospital for about a month even during then there is some measure of control. There's one sense that people are working.
That people who know more than I do are taking care of it. And the other thing is you're sort of like getting up in the morning. You know, I really made like you sort of, you know, use your activities at the tsavorite you get up I have to do this. I have to go to the hospital. I have the schedule. I stay there I talk to this doctor talk to this doctor talk to this doctor at 7:00 when visiting hours are over I come back home. You put one foot in front of the other and you sort of get through the days with this those two weeks. I couldn't do that. I really lived.
In constant fear one of the weekends. I was like Emily. Let's go to a less populated city just for a weekend just to get away. I need to clear my head and I had such a meltdown while we were out of town staying at this hotel. You know, I remember we were at the breakfast buffet and this guy was walking around and he sneezed and then so I'm touching a muffin and put it back down and I was like MV why I'm so sorry we have to drive back right now. It was very very very
Right. I imagine there's a lot of people that are going through pretty close to exactly what you're feeling. Maybe not the exact circumstance, but pretty close a loved one that they were worried about whether it's a parent maybe it's themselves and they are not only dealing with that circumstance, but they're just enveloped in the fear and the uncertainty and I think you said something really smart before the feeling that has anybody taken care of this. Does anybody care about me in this situation? What have you found are the
Ways to cope and to kind of address that
while one of the things that happen was in those days. I sort of somehow got in touch with these are people I had known a little bit but a lot of other people who were in a similar situation by that, I mean people who had spouses or parents or children who were immunocompromised and who are in a high-risk group, so I ended up getting in touch with a lot of those people and we were kind of really supporting each other and really
Talking about it and just hearing someone else articulate exactly what it is. You're afraid of exactly your worries. Are there worries that really really helped me a lot because honestly Emily and I can't talk about that. We have extremely different perspectives on this. So we're both terrified, but it's this thing where and this has been an issue in our relationship since she got sick in 2007 and
Is it something we have to work on a lot more now is we were sort of dating for a while and then she got sick right? And I think I probably had Emily says this and again, I don't want to downplay people who actually have this but I do think I have some amount of PTSD from that right? So there are certain things that really triggered me and then I sort of can't see straight and I think part of it is I probably felt guilt from you know, she was sick back then I
See how sick she was if I'd done something earlier. She wouldn't have to be in the hospital for a month. So trying to prevent that and then it's different because I just feel like it's so irrational but I'm like I can protect her, you know, and I know how awful this sounds but I have this feeling where I'm like while I'm with her. She will not get this virus. So if she goes out for a walk on her own, I don't like that, you know, it's like we get packages. We have a whole like
Process for how we you know, go through packages. We leave them out for a couple days clean them up. So when she goes out to clean them, I don't like that like I want to do it. I feel somehow that I can protect her and it's really difficult for her to have someone so heightened about something like that, you know, and obviously it's completely untrue. There's nothing I could do. That's the scary thing right? Like no one none of us can do anything about it, but it triggers some deep emotional part of me that at some point. I'll go
RP for
well look like the cool thing is you love her obviously and you know, it's questionable based on what you said whether she loves you back. But that's
she must and the otherwise she would not be putting up for this.
No, I guess that's true. I guess it's true. She has to love ya because otherwise you just been way too difficult. But this PTSD thing look I'm not I'm not a licensed anything, but I could tell you that sounds very real like I do think that this idea of being in a
A situation where you lost control she held the think I'd were alive today when you can actually recognize that and it's acceptable talk about and deal with and there are professionals that can help you deal with it. And so on and anybody out there who is feeling things like this. That is so legitimate that even like really famous funny Hollywood people like come out feel the same way. I think that should be encouraging if
nothing else.
What I want to say, this is another thing about this that I found that that is something I've been thinking about a lot for the last few years that when we see these conversations online. I feel like we're still in a place where men saying that they're scared is considered not masculine, you know, and I see that a lot of the anti-mask people, you know, I'll tweet about the importance of wearing masks and washing your hands and staying away from Big crowds, whatever and I have so many men responding.
To me as if I'm a coward, you know as if that's what I'm doing is not manly and I think a lot of that is tied up in here to this idea that you know men are not supposed to be scared. And I think a lot of that is playing into people's reactions here too.
I think this goes back to what we're talking about earlier, which is like everybody should be allowed to have like one or two sucky days a week and then rotate them. So like okay you can't have on the same day or like Society blow up but
like then everybody knows like it's like a calendar on the wall and refrigerator where it's like, okay. Oh, it's Monday. It smells crap day. So like everybody call him check-in, but you better call me
tomorrow. Exactly exactly. I'm doing this for you. You call me tomorrow Emily as this thing. She does called wallow, which is she gives herself a little bit of time every day to just sit down and really worried all those feelings that were sort of condition to push down push away fear sadness, whatever it is specially during this.
Time she sort of sits down its kind of reverse meditating right instead of clearing your head you sit down and you just let everything in and you just sit at that. I think just admitting to yourself what you're feeling is such a big part of the process,
right? And another I think it's probably so second nature for you, but I think laughter is like a huge help at least for me. Just seeing funny things about unfunny situations people who listens podcast know that I'm like Dad joking.
It to death here. I'm rolling their eyes half the show on be surprised. It's going to close with a couple of thoughts one is there's his movement afoot now to say let's just isolate the old people and the sick people and let's let the rest of us get on with it because we have to fix the economy. I think about someone in Emily situation. You're like, okay. So are you really saying that for like the next five years ten years of my life because there's no guarantee that someone with immune system issues can even take
Vaccine so you're really saying we're just going to say we're going to write off a whole bunch of people not all of whom are old but even Those whom are old does it offend you? Does it strike you that way or my hearing it differently?
No, I'm hearing it too. It's just I just find it very added basic very impractical. So are you saying that everyone over the age of 70 just can never be in contact with someone under the age of seven because here's the thing Emily's have been compromised. She's in that group. I'm not so then basically
I don't leave the house either right
but you make a choice right? Either have a life where you compete with
her. It's just completely impractical. I just don't see how it works. I actually have friends who will like text me and be like, all right enough. We should just like cordon off to people quarantine the people who are sick who are in a high-risk group. How do you do that? There's no way to do that. It makes no sense to me.
So just like if we think all people are created equal and that, you know, there's this great quote. I used to work in the Department of Health and Human Services and Hubert Humphrey has this quote
Always says the effect of our society is defined by how we treat people on the margins older this occur the people with disabilities and that's like I don't want to forget that
exactly. I mean, that's even the most Europe Ealing to like a basic sense of humanity, which I don't know if that's something we can count on right now. But look at a retirement homes, right? There are older people there, but the people who work there aren't older people. So now are you saying that those people can't go home and see their families? It just doesn't make any sense.
Yes. Well, I think the summation of all that is let's not act out of fear. We all have that fearful side of us for sure. We all have that self inside of us, but if we can get through this period in make decisions calling on the best of us because like we all have that inside us will do much better. I final question for you and then I'll let you go. This has been so much fun talking to you.
Yeah, this was great. Thank you for talking to me. I you know, your your threads have been very very helpful to me because what I don't like as I said
Early as the not knowing and the people in charge just sort of placating and you can tell that actual information is not on the agenda there. So your threads have really really helped me even though you know, a lot of times it's not news that's necessarily it's not stuff you want to hear but it's still helps because I'd rather be informed and
not know I appreciate it. I appreciate having you talking about my Twitter threads that my sewing there's a dad joke.
I don't think you're sewing thread to making anybody feel better.
So let me
Finish on this what are three things people may not have thought of that are cool things to do at home.
Wow, so okay sit in a new chair. This is we've been doing just like just like sit in a new chair, you know, like we because we are always on the same exact couch and then sometimes she's like, I'll come in and she'll be sitting on like the green chair. That's only for guests on like Emily. What are you doing? She said things just look different for here. What are you gonna do
I get asked the judge is actually we count that as one.
Taxes. Yes that's acceptable for one.
All right. All right. I mean the other thing is I know a lot of people have been like rearranging their Furniture. I don't know if that's helping people.
That's very close to the first. Yes, very close do we exactly count that independently is that Independent Idea is acting since the same idea. Is that thinks it's the
same idea. Okay, hold on one second. Let me ask. Hey Emily Emily. Can you give me two real quick things that people can do that they have
Not to do around the house.
I already said sitting in a new chair.
Oh, I'm Lisa skin you take a shower in your sink. Does she
even know you're talking to did she think like you're talking to your brother just like getting some breakfast things up telling my
mom to shower in the sink every one more. Have you been under your bed lately? Okay, and she's she's put her headphones back it as if she's like sure of the success of
this. I think you've given the audience.
Things to do just a great
list. I will tell you what I am doing, you know back like earlier. I bought a bunch of like DVDs and Blu-rays that are sort of like aspirational DVDs, you know, you buy like some Swedish show three seasons because you're like, oh, yeah, I'm cultured and I'm trying to watch those now and a lot of that stuff is actually really good to watch it from under your bed. Yeah. That's it for my do you bet
well, thank you so much Kemal. This was really fun. And I really appreciate what you guys are going through and
You shared it and let's all get through this thing together
man. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for for your Twitter. Threats have been very very good. You got it. Alright. Take care. Bye
I want to thank you mail for that conversation and Emily for those really terrific contributions at the end very very helpful. So he has a new show coming out, right? What's its act? Yeah. He has a new show on Netflix coming out May 22nd call.
The lovebirds well after that conversation, I'd watch anything. He does actually before the conversation. Also remember to check out his podcast staying in with Emily and Kumail check out his podcast after you've listened to all of our podcast coming up on Wednesday. We've got a great podcast for you. It is with Chelsea Clinton who among other things runs the Clinton Foundation. She has a couple of very famous parents. She is a person who does not do a lot of interviews and media. So, I think it's going to be
Quite interesting. She's really terrific person. I think you'll enjoy it stay tuned. We'll see you Wednesday in the bubble is a productive lemon out immediate. Nicole gotland is our producer and Ivan. Korea have is our editor Jessica Cordova creamer and Stephanie whittles wax executive produced the show. Zach slavit is my co-host and on-site producer music is by Dan Malad and Oliver Hill. You can find out more about our show on social media at lemon out of media.
You can find me at a slap it on Twitter and at Andy slamming on Instagram, if you like what you heard today, tell your friends, but tell him from a distance for now. Stay safe share some Joy. We'll get through this together and hash tag. Stay home.
