112: Brené Brown on Braving The Wilderness & Belonging

Hey there, I'm Marie. Forleo, and for the last 20 years. I've helped millions of people transform their businesses and lives. If you're ready to make the difference, you were born to make get ready because this is the Marie forleo podcast.

You are in for such a treat today. We are sitting down with one of my friends who is quickly becoming a cultural icon. And we're going to have a very important conversation about topics that are relevant today and for the rest of your life.

Dr. Brene Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston where she holds the Huffington Foundation brene. Brown endowed chair. At the graduate college of Social Work. Bernays. Ted Talk is one of the top five, most viewed TED talks in the world with over 30 million views. She spent the past 16 years, studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy. And is the author of three, number one, New York Times. Bestsellers the gifts of imperfection daring greatly.

Lee and Rising strong in addition to her writing and research. Renee is the founder and CEO of Brave leaders Inc. An organization that brings evidence-based courage, building programs, two teams leaders, entrepreneurs and culture. Shifters her latest book braving the Wilderness, the Quest for True belonging and the courage to stand alone is available. Now for night. I love you so much. We love you too. We've wanted to do this. I feel like

For so long and I'm so appreciative that you said, girl. Can you come to Texas?

Did you go to Becky's

a monkey's? So you guys are come just I made her come

just for the ice house and the gas

station. I also short aside before we get into the amazingness. Okay, the amazingness of this new book, which this is my galley copy and you can see guys. I have all these little orange tabs in there. So as an aside come to Texas, driving around last night, I have never seen a gas station, so,

In my life and I heard about Bucky's and I go into Bucky's and I was like, this is a Wonderland of goodness. Yeah. Yeah, that's like tires. Raincoats fudge squeaky pigs. We see pit, you got it. And then the one thing which I will show you guys, we might actually cut it in is a, is this beautiful stone piece, where you put a wine bottle on top. And then it's a spigot and I was like, that's the kind of gift a girl, like meanings. You gotta trust back. He's gotta try to kiss. My husband

are always waiting to see if it goes public. I'm like we're buying in

Okay, getting to the real real stuff. I want to start. First of all, this book is incredible. I texted you that it made such an impact on me. I think this is the message of our time and I'm so glad. We're going to get to peel into it. I want to start with the Maya Angelou quote quote that you share. You are only free when you realize you belong. No place. You belong every place. No place at all. The price is high. The reward is great. Let's dig in with what does true belonging mean and why? This message

Zh y, not,

you know, Maya Angelou has been my most

steadfast counselor for

my entire life. I discovered her probably 30 years ago when I was in college and I lean into her work, you know, when you find those people that just are unsparing and honest in their work, but they also bring you Joy and comfort. She's that for me and I love everything she does except for that quote that quote has pissed me off for decades and I never understood this idea that you're free when you belong nowhere.

And as a social scientist, I know that belonging I know this for sure. Like, if you ask me, the one thing I know, for sure, 200,000 pieces of data. I know, in the absence of love and belonging there's always suffering that I know for sure. So this quote from her about belonging everywhere, which is really know. Where is what sets us free was. So troubling to me.

But then I started digging in and I started trying to understand what is it mean to belong? And I never thought of the concept of belonging. I thought belonging was like we have a crew

like like a posse. Yeah, we're watching the

squad and belonging to something. You kind of negotiate with external groups of people, but it's not what I found very quickly is.

The rest of that actual quote is part of an interview that she did where she and with Bill Moyers where she ends up. Saying, he ends up pushing a little bit on and saying. So, are you saying that you belong nowhere and to no one? And she said I belong to Maya?

And what I found is that true, belonging is a spiritual practice and it's about the ability to find sacredness and both being a part of something, but also the courage to stand alone and the people for those of us who struggle to have the courage to stand alone, especially when we know that it risks. We're risking.

That sense of being a part of something because we disagree. Yes. Because we have a different opinion because we love something different. That is the mark, That's The Mark of true belonging to be able to say. Yes. I am a part of something bigger, but I also will stand alone when I need to. And then then it was like, hope jet.

You belong, everywhere and nowhere. And that is

Liberation. Yeah, so braving Rush has shown up in previous work, but I feel like it's so perfect here. Can you walk us through for anyone who is not familiar with the acronym, an acronym? And what it means, what is braving and how does this help us stay connected to ourselves and others.

So braiding is all about trust and so probably three or four years ago in a lot of my leadership work. I am I probably in this is something people don't know about me.

Spend 90% of my time inside, big organizations working with c-suite teams. That's what I do most of the time. And so in working with leaders, one of the things that kept coming up is trust, trust building, and teams building trust in a culture. The thing that's hard about trust is if I work for you and you call me in and I'm like, really upset, because I got passed over for a promotion and you say to me, look, Renee, you're doing great work, but there are some trust issues the minute. You say anything that I can perceive as I am.

No longer trustworthy are you don't trust me we go completely limbic. We go completely out of listening with our prefrontal cortex to listening, you know to fight flight freeze defend because our trust is our integrity. It's who we are. So I kept wondering like when we talk about trust, what are we actually talking about? Like what could you what could you call me into your office? And say to me that would be more helpful, more impactful and productive than we

Trust issues. I don't trust you. So we dug into the data to figure out what is trust. What do we mean? When we say trust and what I found are, there are seven elements that we're talking about when we talk about trust and these are observable and measurable. These are what we can talk about with each other. So braving is the acronym. We use B is boundaries, you set boundaries when you don't know what they are. You ask, you're clear about. What's okay and not. Okay, which is as you know, so hard for people. Yeah. Boundaries are really hard. Reliability is the are

Are you do what you say? And you say what? You do? The big hard thing about real reliability is you're not hustling for worthiness. So you're not completely over committing to not delivering. Yes. That's the reliability issue. A is accountability. You don't back Channel and blame you. Hold people accountable and a straightforward way the which I think is really interesting. Is the Vault,

The Vault. Can we talk about the very first of all, the vault is so huge because in this culture, and in this time, I say this with my friends all the time.

I'm going to tell you something and it's got to stay in the vault. It has to say my fault. And once that goes, if anyone violates that, and I've had it happen before something shut down to me.

So it does. It's hard to come back from it. Yeah, what people don't understand about the Vault. That's really interesting to me to is that

you call me in and you know, I don't understand why I got the position. Do you say look we've got some trust issues that we need to work through specifically. I want to talk about confidentiality in the vault and I look at you like Marie. I have never shared a single thing that you have told me in the 10 years. We've known each other and you look back at me and say, yes, but you come in here on a regular basis and share things with me that are not yours to share.

It's the other side of confidentiality. It is not only do you not talk out of school between us. You don't come in here and say, hey look I know what's going on with John Bubba, you know, this is what's happening with, you know, so because when I do that and I do that to get connection with you, I do that as a bid for connection. Let me tell you what's going on that you don't know about. Yeah, but when I walk out of the office, you trust me Lass.

Because I'm using stories that are not mine as currency. Yes. So, we got the Vault. Then we go to, I Integrity, which is choosing courage over Comfort. Practicing your values. And this is a big one. I think we have this in common and I love this about you. It's choosing. What's right over? What's fun fast and easy, you know, we have a culture of fun fast and easy. We have a culture of people who don't do discomfort and that's I've never achieved a single thing in my career or

life comfortably.

Absolutely 100%. Yeah,

and then we go to not in for non-judgment. You can ask for help without feeling judged and I can ask for help without judging myself. And then generosity, which I think is probably the biggest hardest one. For me sometimes, which is when something happens, I assume positive intent. So if things go sideways between us and I'm like, damn it Murray. I'm so pissed off, I go and say Let Me Assume the best help me understand what happened. Maria thought we had a plan around this. Yes.

Give you a chance to benefit of the doubt before I launch into my

anger. Yeah, I think that was probably the most difficult for me as well. The one I can see where I instantly jumped to conclusions or I can watch my mind, great to the worst possible scenario. I take with my family there night. Like, my, my parents weren't responding to a particular tax and I made up this entire narrative about what that meant until I like. Oh, we were just putting away groceries and I'm like, there it happens again, dude. All day everyday. Yeah. I have a

story. You know, that's that's human nature. That's why I

During and the absence of data we will always make up stories. Yes, and so I think for braving the wilderness

The whole idea of the Wilderness. Being those times when we stand alone and those times when we go out on a limb, the times we walk away from what we know, our ideological bunkers and our beliefs braving is the tool to help us manage the

Wilderness. It's so useful and it's so concrete. And it's a checklist. Yes, like the checklist. We can hold that. I can hold that for myself. This am I in alignment with me, right? And am I feeling good about how I'm moving through the world? And that brings me. I think one of the most

Most impactful and there's so much wisdom in this book. But what I want to move on to is people are hard to hate close-up, move in this concept of re humanizing, not dehumanizing, it got me in the heart. It got me in the gut, especially what's happening now in our world, there's something that you wrote and I want I want to read it because it is the core of ways that I've struggled in the past few years, not knowing how to approach conversations, not knowing how to invite people into a

Station and to really take a hard look at my own biases and my own angers. And, and how I would like the world to be you wrote, If you are offended or hurt when you hear Hillary Clinton or Maxine Waters called a bitch, a whore or the c word. You should be equally offended and hurt. When you hear those same words used to describe Ivanka, Trump kellyanne Conway or Theresa May when the president of the United States calls women dogs, or talks about grabbing pussy. We should get chills down our spine, and resistance.

Through our veins when people call the president of the United States of pig, we should reject that language regardless of our politics and demand discourse. That doesn't make people subhuman.

I want that to be everywhere. God so hard. It's so hard like, but it's so take your

iPad and just like researcher heels. Yeah, it's hard as hell. Because let me tell you about dehumanization and my concern about it, and as I've witnessed it.

Dehumanization is a very slippery, dangerous process it and I'll tell you where it starts. We are actually hardwired neurobiologically to not hurt one another. It goes against our human nature to treat each other, you know, to be violent rape, torture, degradation, humiliation. Actually, goes against, who we are, and we're wired that way to protect the species where social

PCS. We need each other. We're completely dependent on each other.

The process of dehumanization is the process that we use to slowly primarily using words and images. Nothing more.

The humanization is the process of slowly moving people out. I want to use this table as an example or this coffee. So here's a group of people that we want to harm. It's a group of people that we hate a group of people that a leader has told us here. This cock, this T right here is the cause of all your pain and suffering. So we hate these people and we want to hurt them and we want to see them to dismiss diminished, but they're within this moral.

Own that we have as humans. So, slowly over time. We start using words and images of them, the dehumanize them that move them, slowly and slowly. And slowly into what we call moral exclusion. They no longer are protected by what we believe is human basic rights, and we see the process of dehumanization at the core of every genocide recorded in history.

The Nazi the Nazis used. I think the word is under Dimension. One dimension. It's a subhuman to describe Jews. Every conflict. You can see. And so, what's happening in our country right now, from the leadership to the resistance. No one. No one has high ground here. We are slowly allowing ourselves to start using dehumanizing language, describe people. With whom we disagree. Yes, which then

Makes it okay to physically hurt them.

and when we use dehumanizing language,

It says much more about us than the people that were railing against and I think, honestly, it chips away at our soul.

I agree with you ten thousand percent. That's why this hit me so hard because I've found myself using language. That once I started to make this connection through your work. I was like it was like these lights came on and I said, oh my God, this is so true. This is so right. So I'm so happy that we're talking about this because I have never heard anyone talk about this about dehumanization.

Andre humanization and a way that we can start to enter these really difficult conversations, and we're going to keep going into that. But to retain our dignity, and the humanity for the people that we disagree with.

Yeah, and I think here's the thing. Do you mean ization is not a social justice tool?

It is emotional offloading. It is gratuitous. It is self-indulgent. It is a way to offload, our anger, our fear and our rage, but it has nothing to do with social justice, right?

This conversation is fantastic. Let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor.

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So,

moving on staying in the same Zone. Another really powerful passage. Is there tension and vulnerability in supporting both the police and the activists? Hell, yes. It's the Wilderness. But most criticism comes from people who are intent on false, been forcing false dichotomies, or shaming us for not hating the wrong people. This is where I see so much.

Pain and conflict especially because you know, I run an online business. I'm paying attention to conversations on social media and even when someone is trying to open up a conversation, I see so much misunderstanding. And if you're not with us you're against us and there's no room for nuance. And I'm wondering if you can speak to this a little bit because it was in the section about conflict transformation. And how do we stay brief when having these difficult conversations?

I know it's a lot. So so so

it's like it's like, you know, I don't know. The answer to all of it. What I do know is because it's scary. It's scary for me. And you have a pi, a bachelor's Master's and PHD in social work. Like I was trained in this language and these conversations. I've studied dehumanization for 10 years and still when I go to a Facebook live around, something that's happening. I'm scared to death because here's what I know. I know.

I'm not going to do it perfectly right? I know that not only the people who oppose my politics and my beliefs are going to come after me, but I know that the people who I believe that,

Are my allies are going to come after me because I'm going to do it in perfectly. Yes, but opting, out of opting, out of speaking out, because we may get criticized, to me is the definition of privilege.

Like I don't really have to speak out because there are no crosses burning in my front yard. My kids seem pretty safe. You know, I'm not getting pulled over. I'm not, you know, yeah, everything seems fine. So to opt out, because it's safe, is what Privileges? And so the way I think we have the conversations is you stay grounded in your humility and curiosity. And you say here's what I believe. Let me spare you coming back and telling me how imperfect It Is by saying right up front. I know it's going to be a perfect. Yeah, but I'm not.

To let my imperfection move me away from the conversation because it's too important.

And here's the thing that I live by and here's the thing that I invite people to live by at the end of the day at the end of the week and the end of my life. I want to be able to say that. I contributed more than I criticized. And so if all you're doing is criticizing people who are trying to engage in conversations that heal and bring hope.

Shut up.

I mean, really just

don't talk.

It's not useful.

It's not useful.

I loved. I know, you know, this is going to air a little bit later than when we're taping it, because that's how the world of video works. But you recently did a Facebook, like we did one yesterday and I watched it. And I just thought it was so wonderful because I was looking through the comments and I loved seeing you know, where there were places, where people were taking issue with a particular word or a particular phrase and there were so many people that were coming in and saying, hey, I'd actually love to discuss this with you, you can p.m. Me but there was a quality in the

Mention of that. Yeah, that did not feel accusatory. It felt like an invitation. It felt like, hey, I want to share a Viewpoint with you that may not have considered before, and I it almost brought tears to my eyes because I haven't I've seen so little of that.

It's amazing. It was amazing. Right? And we're talking about 10,000 comments. Yes, but here's the thing. That's hard fought. We absolutely

We don't curate the comments, we but we police them and I'm very clear about

that. Can you talk about that distinction? Because I think especially in our audience and I know, you know, you and I have so many friends, young, the space people who are authors people, who lead companies, people who have the privilege of having an audience. Yeah, and I think they would love to hear from you. I certain that's why I'm asking his questions to have tools because a lot of folks are like I want my so-and-so who I admire to speak out and I think what you said is so key here that you've been studying this for 10 years and you

Look into these conversations still feeling really

nervous. Oh my god. Oh, completely vulnerable. And that when I taped that Facebook live on Charlottesville, my voice was shaking for the first ten minutes of it. Like I didn't know if I was going to be able to make it all the way through. I noticed that just so you know and and it was a full schedule taping day and other things and it was scheduled to be taped in the afternoon. I said soon as I got there in the morning, I said I have to do this now because it's so heavy on my heart and I'm so afraid that if I give my self time, I'll rationalize myself out of doing this.

So for me, it's about this. This is my space on Facebook. You can have your face. Everybody can have their own space and my space. You can disagree. We can debate. We can argue, but you're not going to shame other people. You're not going to name-call and you're not going to put people down. If you do, I'm probably going to ask you once not to do it, and then you will ban you from the page. And I do not think there are enough.

Spaces in the world right now. There are some people who do it really? Well. Ted. Does it really well because it's kind of comments or moderate moderated. I guess is the right word. Bye.

The people who comment there the community they'll vote you off the island. I guess if it's too inappropriate, but I'm not going to tolerate that because it doesn't contribute. Yes. Now if someone says like a Brunet you're wrong and I totally disagree. And this is why I disagree, then I'm going to answer it. You know, I can't answer every but I'm gonna answer as many as I can and will debate it. If they come on and say I hate you and I'm going to, you know, I want I hope you get killed. You. Delete it. I mean, like, it's just yeah, why contribute.

Yep,

and I hope so. I don't think it's curated but there is a homeowner's

association. Yeah. No, I think it's really important. We we do it's a different thing because it doesn't tend to go into those content areas. But in our be school Community, I have such a strong stand for kindness and be like, but what? And I'm like, look negativity is toxic debate ideas. Yeah, we can talk about different strategies, but we will not trust chalk. People will not trust, Rock other programs, other business know. Like let's keep it and it's amazing how much.

Forward progress and healthy conversations and true growth can happen when you take care of that space. Safe space.

Yeah, it's Jill bolte Taylor who sad take responsibility for the energy. You bring into a room and I feel like what people don't do online social is, they don't take responsibility for the energy. They put out into the world and in the worst case scenario, what they're putting out in the world is actually disembodied from their identity, their, it's Anonymous. Yes. I respond to nothing. It's anonymous.

So if you've got some kind of flower icon and your name is like Lily from sassy pants. Yeah, one, two, three, I'm not responding to you because you're not in the arena. You're not showing up. You're not being brave. So I'm not gonna have a

conversation. Yeah, and I think what I've been watching too, is I think it's so much more effective, you know, people, there's also like this call-out thing happening and I think there's probably a distinction to be made between holding people accountable and shaming people, because it's not a way to open up a conversation. You're, you're not going.

To get folks to actually engage, and then possibly grow and come together when you're making them

wrong. Now. I meanshe me. Look, shame never drives positive behavior. What shame drives is rage anger, rationalization and blame. And so if you're looking at kind of the white supremacist and the KKK, and the Nazis who are Marching around towns, and you say, let's just shame them. Like, let me tell you, if they weren't.

Hi in shame already. They wouldn't be marching through town spewing hatred. Is it? My job to heal them and take care of them. Not know, but I'm not going to contribute to it. I'm not going to say look. They're on fire. Let me throw some gasoline on it if there's no. And the other thing is when I when you shame people, it hurts you.

Like it hurts you. It's part of the and I don't it's hard to shame people without dehumanizing them to. I'm just not going to do that. What I am for is holding people accountable.

And that, but the thing is and this is this is the hard part.

Holding people accountable is not as much fun and does not deliver the emotional satisfaction that raging against people and shaming people do. So when you post something some hideous meme about the white trash, you know, khaki Izod where you know, when you, you know, you it feels good. Like you feel like look at me, you know, your anger has some place to go. It does nothing. But to contribute to the vitriol, it does nothing.

nothing, and so,

Shame begats Shame and the same way that violence begets violence.

It's not the answer is the answer to coddle behind. This is what people say. Renee doesn't want us to shame anyone. She wants us to coddle people. Well, if you only two tools that you have in your tool bag or shame or coddle, that's a sorry ass tool

bag. You need to upgrade your TV.

Yeah, there's like 500

things. You need to go to Frankie's. Yeah. I got a big basket. Get you a texas-sized that

has things like, you know, curiosity, accountability, social justice.

Yes, I think that's interesting too. And one of the things that I try to hold true, I am so not perfect at it. I fuck up all the time. But I try and promote what I'm standing for. You. Know what I mean? Giving people a concrete actually pay. What can we do? I think that's just in intrinsic to my DNA and I'm a doer. Yeah, and I always want to do some like, oh, how can we direct ourselves collectively like what are the actions? We can take right now that will help move the conversation or help move things

So I think one of them is start having the conversations with your kids, with your neighbors, with your partner, with your colleagues, start having the conversations don't go in as the teacher go in as with curiosity and generosity. What do you think about? What's going on questions? Like this? Like, this is a great email. I got. She's someone wrote after the Facebook live and said, I am so offended when people use the word White,

Us. I could barely get through your Facebook live, but then when my husband came home, I said I want you to watch this so we can talk about it. And so he watched it and he like kind of shifted a lot and grunted and this is white couple and kind of probably mid 40s and he said, what do you think? And he said, wow, and then we just started talking about it. My 17 year old son came home. We started talking about it and we just started breaking it down and trying to figure out what we emotionally reacted to with compared if

Everyone did that the world would be different in 24 hours. Yeah, I mean it really is going to take a million acts of

Kindness and Consciousness to change this.

When you're at work and someone says a joke, that's really anti-immigrant or anti-transgender instead of laughing and walking away or just not say anything walking away. You just look and say, Jesus. I mean, you don't have to say, I'm really offended and these people are brothers and sisters because people can't hear that. You can say Jesus. That's not funny.

I like hey, dude, if you have to hurt other people, you're not that funny. Yeah.

That's it. That's it. I mean, if a million of us did that,

If a million people tomorrow, too sad, I don't really understand black lives matter. I don't really get it. I want to try to understand it. I don't want to try to protect myself from it or defend against it. I just want to try to understand it.

Maybe 200,000 may change their mind. Maybe an 800,000 will keep the same opinion, but there will be a shift in the consciousness of the country, just by asking the questions. Yeah,

that's why our work is so important. Okay. I Am shifting gears here. Take a great. A hard, right? Yeah.

I'm going.

One of my other favorite parts of book was about when you were talking about certain conferences, wanting you to, like, stick to certain topics. Don't talk about your faith or want you to wear certain clothes or the

Really got me, of course, is you know, not to cuss. Yeah, and another Maya saying quote something. She told you I shall not be moved. I would just love to hear about your journey with this, because it's something that personally I've struggled with, you know, I've adjusted things on my show because sometimes we just get emails for moms. Like, oh, I watch with my two-year-old and so I'm, like, am I going to really drop an F-bomb? Right? Can I try and put warnings? I'm just so curious about your journey with that and how its evolved over over the years. Like, our people still tell

On you like don't talk about the faith Brunei, or make sure you don't drop the little s bomb,

not as much as not as much as they were and less than they will be after. I mean, yeah, they read this probably cuz it's just, I think, you know, for me, the big two things are don't talk about faith.

Because when I talk, when I do a lot of leadership Market, talk about understand your personal values and my two personal values, our faith and courage. And so they say, don't talk about faith. It's inappropriate. It's, this is a, you know, an organic corporate Corporation and then I do a lot of work in churches and they'll say don't cuss. And so, I just got to the point where I'm like, look, I've said across from thousands and thousands of people over the last two decades of my life, listening to the hardest things you can imagine. And the two things that everyone has in common, when they're talking about those things are cussin and praying. If you

I mean to cuss and you don't want me to pray. That's awesome. Ask somebody else.

Because what I'm not going to do is get up and bullshit. You.

And there are a million people in this space, who are better than I am, who know different things than I do invite them. Right? If you need me to wear a suit, that's I totally get it. I'm not going to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to wear jeans and boots and probably I'll wear a nice shirt. Yep, but I'm not going to do that because I don't get up there.

When I speak in public, I don't get up there to talk to my, you know, to talk from my Brooks Brothers, self to your Brooks Brothers self, I get up there and when I walk on the stage, I'm going to talk about things that 90% of the people in the audience, have never thought about talked about and are scared to listen to. And they need to see me as a person, and I'm just that person. Yeah, and so, I'm not going to walk in with like, a therapist outfit either. Like, you know, how you define that, but if clogs are in that then, yes, I probably.

It's Guilford night showed up together an event and we but I've had like a god, like a poncho and clogs and like, smart wool socks and we're like, hey camper. Yes, so do kinda look like a therapist convention. But yeah, it's just, I think the clear I want. If you invite me, I want your event or your leadership team. I want it to be

successful. Yes, you know, and if

you need me to be someone different than who I am, it's not going to be successful and else. Yeah, a decade ago. I've done that.

Yeah, you know, I get offstage. I'm crying and I'm like, oh my God, I'm a total asshole. I just spent 90 minutes talking about authenticity, you know, in clothes that I only wear to funerals. Yeah, you know, like I'm not going to do that.

Yeah, that's part of the reason to in the early days. Like I think is probably maybe like 15 years ago. Some folks are like, oh we should do TV pilot with you, but we want you to be more this. I want you to be, I was like, oh hell no. This is why I'm doing marietv on the internet because I can do whatever I want. But that's that's the

thing that people I don't think you know, if I was

People getting started out in this business, you want to build a platform and speak to people and share wisdom. Amen. Do it. We need more of that and be be careful beware of shiny objects because the say I've had the same conversation about talk shows or about you know, and I'm like, oh that sounds great and I'm going to talk about as you know, did you this person who studies dehumanization and then on to do this on? Get to know your be hustling up the Kardashians generating weekend? I'm like, no. No, yeah like that. I'm not going to do. Yes, like I got ya.

Not that, you know, God bless them.

Totally, but it's not what you. It's not a heart. Yes. Yeah, unique

expression. And there's this part from braving the Wilderness that it really changed me. It's the practice that came from the book and it is

Don't walk through the world looking for evidence that you don't belong because you will always find it. Yes, don't walk through the world looking for evidence that you're not enough, because you'll always find it.

Are worth and are, belonging are not negotiated with other people.

We carry those inside of our hearts.

And so for me, I know who I am. I'm clear about that. And I'm not going to negotiate that with you. I will negotiate a contract with you. I will negotiate, maybe even a topic with you, but I'm not going to negotiate Who I Am with you, because then, and this is, I think the heart of the book, then I'm a fit in for you, but I no longer belong to myself and that is a betrayal. I'm not willing to do anymore. I spent the first 30 years of my life doing that. I'm not willing to betray.

Myself anymore to fit in with you. I just can't do it

this. I mean, I don't think I said it. I might have said it at the opening, but I just want to make sure I reiterate it as my little Galley copy. But this is out. Now in this is airing, you guys have to get this book for yourself for everyone that, you know, and love. And I'm going to maybe put you on the spot a little bit. Yeah, if you could be open to reading this last time, I was in tears with this one. Yes.

Okay, so this is the close of the book. Yeah. Okay, I'll leave you with this. There will be times when standing alone feels too hard too scary and will doubt our ability to make our way through the uncertainty. Someone somewhere will say, don't do it. You don't have what it takes to survive the Wilderness. This is when you reach deep into your wild heart and remind yourself, I am the wilderness.

You are the Wilderness. I love you. I love you, too.

You know what? I was going to say.

I am the fucking Wilderness.

Amen. Let me cry.

Yeah, and that's not comfortable for everyone but it's not that. That's who we are. They call it the wild. Yeah. Yeah, and I love this. I love the fact that people are afraid of the Wilderness. But when you get out there, you'll find some people like us out there

and it's so free. It's so free and it feels so good and we'll be dancing. I was going to say we are going to be frolicking. Yeah. They are Bucky squeaky pegs, and thank you for having me. Thank you.