This week Jules and I sit down and discuss the shootings in America, boys and men, remote work and independent politics. All of that this week on forward.
Welcome back, its Andrew and jewels, you thought that I had disappeared, but I am here Jules and I were just having a conversation about reading books. I'm developing quite a book collection. And I don't know if you all have noticed, but I interview authors a lot and I buy their books and I buy a hard copy of the book. So it turns out that boys and girls read fiction. But then after you get to adulthood apparently men, consume much less fiction. We kind of switched to nonfiction.
Yep, whereas women still love you, read both fiction and nonfiction. So I guess this means that women have broader reading tastes, but I was reflecting on the fact that when I was young I used to read science fiction and fantasy novels like candy. Like I just, you know what, inhale them and then now I read tons and tons of nonfiction. So I was just talking to Zach who's also here. We could get Zack in. As I heard, a third member of the tripod is Act was like, yeah, that tracks that's his experience to. So I don't know what that says about men and women but apparently, our reading tastes diverge at a certain point.
Point. I think it's like for example science fiction. Yeah, everyone kind of tapped into that when they're younger. It's more so and then men kind of tap out of that genre as I grow older and I think it's more. So like these things are very maybe imaginative and maybe like romanticizing different things of life and I think girls, especially like, in their adulthood still tend to flock to that and then guys, yeah, end up going to like you're saying, nonfiction route of kind of just hard facts and kind of lose that imaginative and
creative. Great, wasn't
it?
Go out of these like dystopian novels. Yeah. I took a pop culture in the u.s. Class in college and we were assigned romance novels. They said a box of ourselves and grab one and so I read it and it was great. So no, I understand women's doubles as a four because I read one and you know, it was like Escapist fantasy. It was good fun.
Well, it's also interesting that girls end up going to like those like murder podcast. A lot of the times I could see
Known that those types of podcasts are very female-dominated in terms of the audience. And also, what does that say? Because like, that's not necessarily fiction, but it is like the storytelling of like these extremes
crime. Yeah. It's just True Crime is the word. Yeah. I did know that women consume True Crime podcasts at a much higher level.
Yeah. I find that fascinating to I think it's more so maybe just kind of internalizing almost like this fear. That woman are
maybe it's maybe it's relationships because there is always a drama involved with the True Crime stuff.
Yeah, I remember growing up. I watch Like Criminal Minds and everything like that and found that stuff fascinating and like especially when you're growing up like you do very much internalized, those storylines. I remember like I would walk past a window at night and I'd be like, oh my God, like I was like, something's gonna like, pop out all the time.
Yes, you know, I do think that the majority of the audience of this podcast is, is man. I think that checks out
directly this week. I feel like
So many things came up that really reminded me of the pages of the war on normal people as well as forward. Just so many different Tendencies and just yeah cultural situations that you talked about on the pages of these books. Not that you weren't necessarily predicting them but more. So noticing the emergence of them and I think it's important to talk about you as we talk about the relationship with men and different things was these different shootings that happened over the past weekend, two of them were considered like mass shootings. One of them was much bigger. So there
On Sunday, it was a church in California. Yeah, I think it was like two killed five injured in Milwaukee when the Bucks game was happening through three different shootings. One of those shootings was responsible for 17 injured. And then biggest one that the media had really ran with, as well. Was the Buffalo Buffalo, New York, which was the first of these three over the weekend. And I've dealt with an 18 year old male. That if there was no doubt that it was racially motivated because he detailed his plan in a
Pesto 10 killed three wounded live streamed on Twitch just a pure evil situation. Pure evil. You can't like I wouldn't don't seek this out. I don't believe so. I don't even think you can really access the manifesto on social media, good. Yeah. So what were your initial thoughts and seeing this news? Because, you know, you're very passionate about this boys and men conversation and I would just love to hear your take on
that. It's heartbreaking. You think about people shopping and living their lives. And then
Having this.
Evil lunatic. Yeah, teenager come and take. So many lives brutally and senselessly. So we're at a point in American life and it start, it's super dark because we all are at this point where you see there's news about a shooting and then you ask. Okay. What kind of shooting is it? Yeah, like like, what's the nature of the shooter? The nature of the victims and a lot of that hinges on Race. Now, in the Buffalo, shooting Krista.
There, it's a hate crime. Yep, white supremacist. Manifesto really disgusting. I can't imagine victimizing that neighborhood in Buffalo and seeing those people as somehow your enemy mean. That the entire thing is,
Beyond dark. It it truly is evil. The other shootings. I'll say one of them actually strikes, quite close to home. Where the church shooting in California. Is of a Taiwanese American community and the gunman was a 68 year old Chinese American who drove from Las Vegas and apparently had been ingesting propaganda about. Yep, Taiwan and got angry enough where he drove across very targeted. Yes, a lion's. Targeted Milwaukee shootings.
It struck me from the news accounts. I read that it seemed like there was some kind of like gang violence against probably members of another gang. Yeah. It might be a
sec multiple. Yeah. Guns, involved. Everything like
that. Yeah. So so when I was looking at these three, and I think the attention is rightfully, being placed on the Buffalo shooting because one of them is I think it did happen. First chronologically. So our attention went to that. But the white supremacists
Shooters, unfortunately, becoming a Trope or a pattern that people are seizing on and saying, you know, this is evil and probably not isolated in the sense that it's happened before will likely happen again. And so people are rightfully trying to figure out how we can stop it. There's been communication and this is another dark thing about American life is that people have given up on even talking about gun control as a practical solution because everyone knows and you're not going to pass it. And so now,
We're focusing on the messaging. Yes, and I do think that there's this online radicalization phenomenon that is dark consistent. Going to get worse and needs to be focused on to try and put a stop to it. So I'm on board there. And you know because of the fact that like I have been writing about this stuff since County teen, like I this stuff scare the shit out of me for years when we had
Abra Walter the author of the next civil war on. She said, there are 400 militias in the US. The 80% of them are all right, anti-government, white nationalist. So this is the very very virulent growing strain of hate in American life. And there are these Trends, they're all layered on top of each other. So I talked about boys and men and a bunch of which I do think it's related. You have the this
disintegration. There's a clear trend of who is moving forward with these.
Two backs over 95% of the shooter yet. Clearly boys are men. So that's the macro context and then the micro is what happens. In the brain of this particular eighteen-year-old that radicalize
them and when it comes to online, radical radicalization and you know, there's conversations of free speech and kind of where is the line of people just critiquing certain mindsets and certain ideologies and such and where it's kind of you feel like the line is and where social media companies or other organizations.
Need to step in when it comes to this online
radicalization. I think there are very, very distinct cesspools. I haven't personally, you know, gone digging Jihad deep into that. Yeah, you know, but you know what they are. It's like 4chan each an and some of these others. And so, I think that's where you start, because I think that that's like the most virulent, dark evil, hateful material, that actively tries to radicalize you, you know, that's like that shows you certain videos like, you know, the meanest person literally had a camera on his
Head because he wanted to share it. And so I thought that's where you start like the darkest, recesses of the internet.
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There was a video of you from a democratic debate that was resurfacing after this happen. And you said, we have to find ways to turn our boys into healthy strong. Men, who do not hate, but feel like they have paths forward in today's economy. It's clear that a lot of boys and men today, don't necessarily feel that path being there. And, you know, while there is an array of cultural reasoning and easy yet, wrongful route is typically go at other normal people, different groups of normal people and that's what we're seeing. So, what do you see as like the key path?
We need to Target first other than online
radicalization in the, I think the single biggest variable if you're ill and I haven't looked into this particular shooter, but one pattern is that they don't have fathers in the household. Like, if you have a father in the household, I think the odds of you are heading down, certain roads drops a ton for sure. Now again, you can't go back in time and give this, you know, person a two-parent household, but I think that's the single biggest variable. And one of the things I talked about in the war normal people is that 40?
T1, 42 percent of American children are born to unmarried Mom's today single moms outnumber single fathers something, like four or five to one. So you have a lot of little boys were brought up being brought up by single moms. And I think it's tough for that boy to develop positive role models or sense of masculinity and then if they get drawn to an online rabbit hole that says like this is how you
Our sense of importance or identity. It's much easier for them to fall prey to that kind of hateful. Thinking if they don't have someone in the house being like, hey, let's go outside and throw a football around and like, you know, you don't have someone in the house that can show you a better way. Can try and channel your energy is positively.
I think it's important to also talk about how important a foundation of a family is for these individuals to not only just kids but also like being
Be able to provide that to a kid with this new generation that's coming up and is having these issues. What like, how do you see the importance of family? Just as an adult and like how important that also was has been in your life as a parent with someone else in the
household. So this is one of the tough things is when I've talked about two-parent households than certain people online. The like, hey, you're somehow judging folks who are in different situations. Yeah, and I'm a thousand percent. Not like I think that single moms are freaking superhuman, single parents are superhuman, but I feel that
As I think parenting is super difficult. There are two of us. It's still hard. I have no idea how anyone would do it alone. Yep. And so that's been my experience. It actually, is one of the things that Drew me to run for president. I talked about in the book because when I became a parent, it nearly tore my mind soul, heart apart, like so much stress in the household. I thought that it would be okay, and it was not okay. It turns out that our
Son was autistic. And my wife had picked up on that. Yeah, and some instinctive level and I did not because you know, like your first-time parent and so so our conversations were often around. I give you an example, like Christopher when he woke up you just started screaming and then when we had another child and he was not screaming as soon as he woke up. I was like, oh my gosh, like, you know, I kind of thought that maybe there's a difference. Yeah, maybe screaming was not the usual greeting of the day. Yeah.
So, so Christopher to, it's like if he were to step from, let's say grass to the concrete, would start freaking out about the texture change, you know, and so, when you're a first-time parent and your two-year-old is like, you know, freaking out about something that seems stupid. Like, do you think like, oh, this person's like autistic like, you know, you don't know. Better mean, I didn't know better. So there's just like a lot of
Difficulty and stress and it Berry much tested my marriage. We're like, you know Evelyn I were both very, very stressed out. Yeah, so, you know, you're not exactly your best self all the time to your partner. So I imagined being let's say even a couple maybe you're not married, but you're trying to make it work like that stress would break up most of the cost of those couples. You imagine trying to bring up that child individually so I can see all these things.
Through the cracks and I imagined tens of millions of American families in that situation. I imagine the hardship and the Heartbreak because you want to do your best for your children. And a lot of cases is not going to be able to do everything that the child needs. Even if you do your best through no fault of your own. It's just the are aware
in and whether you're in a single parent home or a two-parent home with the internet. Now, that's like a whole nother parent involved in
Terms of, like, you a lot of the times, you don't know what your kid is exploring on the internet, you know, you can have these different settings or whatever, but kind of keeping track of that world as well. And what your kid is getting into, you know, parents in past, I can eat a little bit more control of like totally. Yeah, we know, we know who you're hanging out with, we know who your teachers, our parents don't necessarily know how to navigate it's as hard, disconnect of to of just like a digital divide. That's not just amongst youth. It's a digital divide amongst generations of the out how kids are using it versus how parents use
it. Like, I think I'm more savvy than pressure.
Many parents. And I would say, I don't have a clue a lot of the stuff that's going on. Yeah, I do know that it's worse for teenage girls, by the numbers. In terms of mental health, anxiety and depression. We talked about the failure, boys and men, but you know, I mean, everyone has a tough nowadays and large part because of social
media and like, like, we're talking about your rightfully passionate about voicing that all the boys are not. Alright today, and not in a way that's like, right off half of the society that men make up 50% of society. But in a way that's like, hey, there's
Clear and valid reasoning for this. So how do you feel we need to Pivot dialogue around the issue so that it's not demeaning or it's not pitying them but it's also not being dismissive of this issue and that it needs to be
tackled. One of the things that I'm passionate about is to say, look, healthy boys and men helps everybody. Yep, successful healthy girls and women helps everybody, you know, it's like that like thinking that there's some kind of strange. Zero-sum game between the genders is Dom and ridiculous.
and for boys and men, and in particular, white, boys, and men, just no one wants to treat them as people who need help, you know, I mean like that they're always the problem and you know, it's like I don't think that's fair because you know like that like life's not peaches and cream for people of any, you know background particularly now, so those are a couple
All of the things that I suggest is like, you know, everyone's human, like we should treat everyone as if they could use a hand, if, if they
need one. Yeah, people don't want to feel pity. Don't know if I ever feel pity to whether it's like woman messaging. I'm like, I don't want to be put in a box of like, this limiting situation of 000 men are experiencing this so it is limiting in today's society, but there's actually replied to one of your tweets recently about the situation and Drew Hall said, we should be telling every child having
Puberty that they will have incredibly violent thoughts and emotions. That are incredibly powerful and that you don't necessarily know how to handle. And after we acknowledge these parts of our brains growing, we can offer healthy outlets and counseling to manage these growing pan, pains and our mental health, I think, right now you amongst young boys about to looked at as something that is a - in a week part of their minds in reality. It's like it's natural and help giving them the tools of how to deal with it. Like you said, in a healthy way, in a strong way, and your Washington Post op-ed about this.
Stu, I found this line really interesting of male dysfunction tends to take on an air of nihilism and dropping out a society. We don't provide many avenues for healthy recovery. I think right now like we saw that it was an 18 year old boy that did the incident in Buffalo New York, but there is a conversation of course just adult men in general whether your first navigating autonomy as a young adult. Whether you're newly divorced, whether you just got fired from a job and it's just a new sense of autonomy. The frustration of this time. It makes it
Easier to induce anger. So what do you see as avenues for healthy recovery for adult men.
Well, one of the stats in the war in normal people, that stuck with me is that unemployed men volunteer in their Community less than employed men, even though you're much more time on your hands. Hmm, then it's because you don't feel valuable and so you don't think, oh, I don't have a job like, you know, maybe I'll go to the youth center or the church or whatnot, and lend a hand, like you just think like, oh, I'm going to keep to myself. I think that's very normal for men.
So that the question is, how can you make people feel valued, have them feel like that? They can plug in in a way that that contributes and do it in a way that is not shameful as you're describing. It's like, it's actually like, prized and important. And I think in that Washington Post op-ed, I talked about like men need to be valued or need to be needed or something like that. So in an Ideal World, you'd have someone call that guy and say, hey I need a hand on something and then you realize okay.
And you know, what is that project? It's a bit like the end of Shawshank Redemption. I don't know if you've seen that
movie. Yes. My favorite had to watch it in Psychology class in high school. So, you know,
when at the end, you know, he goes to Morgan Freeman scares. Like I could use a hand with this. Like everyone just wants to get that call saying. I could use a hand with this. The question is who's making that call and then what are the projects that someone needs help way? They could be volunteering in a certain capacity right now. One of the things that also
Also is tied up with mail value is some kind of income or money. And so if you get a call saying, hey, I like, I need you to help me with something and it doesn't pay. Then you feel like you can only do it for a short period of time, and then you need to find some of it does pay.
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Those points actually bring up an interesting conversation about the future of work because whenever I had like restaurant jobs or whenever I had, you know, it was working at a gym. I never necessarily felt this specific feeling I had until a corporate job or you know, very stuck into these time constraints and your veggies and a salaried job more. So of oh, I wish I could just have all the time in the world and with all that time I would do this and then I got into a situation where I was more self-employed and you kind of have a more open schedule where it's like, yeah like you are in control.
All this but I did find it almost like yeah. Debilitating as like you think you're going to do so much with all this open time, but I found it became so important for me to have these structures where actually vital, but if you would have right out of college told me that, I'd be like, no. Like if I had all the time in the world, I would do this long list of things and it is interesting, cuz I think a lot of kids feel like this right now, especially college graduates are having these first full-time
jobs. Yeah. I mean, I just use my own experience where I tried to start a company in my mid-twenties, totally flopped.
But it was it was miserable in part because I didn't have an office. So I was working in effectively and futilely from home and isolated passion, and I said to myself like I'm not going to do that again, you know, it's like II minimum have to have a some have someplace to go. And then the next number of jobs. I had were these startups and I was in the office and I did learn a few things and then when I became head of my own company, I made it.
Point to show up and be diligent and and I tried to look out for people and be a good manager and take people out to lunch and things like that. And it's like the that sort of thing was important to me that the tough part Jules is that I think 80% of people, you give them a choice. They're not going to want to go to the office because why would you, you know, but the question is what
Would you have gotten out of being in an office three or four days a week? You know, you might think all this commute socks or no office culture is annoying, but that there are some virtues to it. And so, if a young person is in a situation where you're not getting that, you know, I'd like to see them get that in other ways, if it's possible. So the first thing that came to mind and this might not be useful but so that there's like a West Point model of leadership training where they put Cadets in charge of someone in the class below them and
Also have them report to someone that has above that. Oh, yeah, so you have different leadership experiences both up and down all the time. I think that's very useful, and it can be in any context. So I'm imagining that if you aren't participating in an office environment, maybe you join a rock climbing gym or like some activity where there is like a development path and are people better than you. Maybe you're better than some other people. I think that kind of context is super
helpful and thinking of the future work and how our relationships with work are going to change. People are saying, you know,
whether it's in 2015, but humans might not even have to necessarily do a lot of the work that we do today with 2040. Even how do you feel like, what are the types of things that can be in place for people's structure. Do you ever think about that?
I do think about is Paramount. Yeah, you know, it's like so some of the ideas I have around this and that, so, right now, most of all of us work because we need an income to survive, etc. Etc. As you all know. I mean, I ran
President on this idea that AI is going to do a lot of those jobs. So you don't we thought about it. Yeah, I'm gonna suggest that the work from home trend is going to accelerate the automation of a lot of jobs because like, you know, you're halfway there. You're like a disembodied, a
our Humanity of it of not yes, seeing people in person. Yeah.
Yeah. So the question is, what's the transition? And this is one reason why, and one of the things people said to me all the time. It's like, oh, you know, jobs aren't about money and I was like, I totally agree, you know, like like,
You should be looking to develop new forms of community structure, purpose development, fulfillment. And if it's not an office, which I I'm cool with and like, you know, it's like then, what is it going to be? Yep, and that is the major Gap in American life. Right. Now. I interviewed Arthur Brooks the author a while ago. Then he talked about humans as being worshipful, and organized. Religion is fading as a central component in people's lives and the community.
It's being replaced by media and politics. And he said that the TV networks, for example, our media tribes or Cults or whatever you want to call them and that the anchors are like, the new Idols. Hmm. It was an interesting argument that you can take it, you know, not as far or as far as you want, but there is certainly a void in American Life. The job has been the
Foundation of it for a long time, not just in terms of our incomes, but also our social life. Remember, when I started a job and I was only a lot for five months, but like you showed up and there were peers and maybe, you know, you might be attracted to someone you work with. Like, there might be like, your job could be like, 80% of your life. Yeah. In politics that tends to be 100% because, you know, you're just doing it and you're traveling. And if someone's not with you on the campaign and you don't have time for them, that sort of thing.
That void in my opinion will be filled by by something. We don't like if we don't fill it with something positive. Now, what does that positive version look? Like? I know it could be people, starting new kinds of community, orgs or associations. I'm, I interviewed a woman who was going to come out the podcast soon. I was started hybrid newsletter event group in Seattle, called the Ever Gray.
You know, I think that there is a real need right now. The problem is that the economics aren't there in most of these instances. It's, I mean, this is one of the biggest things I think about though. Yeah. Is that like, how do you fill this void
me? My friends with other week. We're actually talking about this, just the conversation about like we missed Miss organized Sports and on the way as an adult, you know, you can go play Pick-up Games and all the stuff. Like, I played volleyball growing up, but there isn't that like camaraderie around practices, which I find like the most fun.
Like, if in the future that could become a normal for situation for adults because it's always sad at the end of high school. When, yeah, like that feels like, it's it done chapter for you.
Totally. Yeah. I love that. There are a couple of things that formed those experiences. One of them is summer camp, and I think we could all use some more camp in our lives. Oh, for sure. And when there's been like an adult version of Camp sort of cheesy, but also really, really infectious and fun and important. The next thing would be
Some kind of organized Sports. Hmm during my 20s and 30s. I played a weekly game of basketball with the same 15 guys. Yep, and it was the high point of my week. A minor. What else happened that we could be like, you know, I'm just going to go to that gym and play basketball. And what's funny is I played with those guys for years. I have no idea what any of them did for a living.
Yeah. It's just like this cool relationship of its surface level, but not in a bad way. Like it's just like all positive. Yeah, you might get into some arguments, but it's, it's just like, so one of the
yeah. And so in my
Is to is guys. So it was so, bro. E, you just show up and be like, sup sup. Yeah, you know, did it? I just do your thing and, you know, just made everything better.
You often make the case at many of our problems though. Seemingly, like beasts on their own are actually very interconnected everything that we were just talking about is somehow interconnected. When we're talking about boys and men can lead into education. It does lead into work a lot of the times. So I would pinpoint polarization right now as a clear initial push and a greater domino effect. I feel like you feel the same though. You can add more and like what do you classify as the main drivers of polarization right now?
Well, you know, I go into it in my book and just right now polar.
Station is profitable polarization is politically wise. Polarization is the winning strategy. So you're going to expect more of it because everyone wins on it. Yeah, you know, I tend to think about the numbers behind it. Mean you have multiple billion dollar media organizations, that separate us into ideological camps and give us what we want and get us angry at the other side. Then you have trillion dollars social media companies pouring gasoline on the whole thing. So this is going to get worse and worse. And now
Better. The question is, can we break out of it in time? I think we got a chance at it happily because the current party system is so decrepit. And on representative, but you know, it's a very tall order. It's a challenging
task. Well, this week, I saw two tweets that I was happy to see whether you like. Either of these guys are not one was from Tim Urban, and another was from Elon Musk in response to him. So, Tim Urban did a five-part thread, I'll read the first two because I think you're very fascinating to
Conversation and I agree. So it was some mantras for political thinking, truth is hard, humility is hard, independent thinking is hard, resisting tribalism is hard over and over. You will forget that these things are hard, and that's probably when you'll fail at them, and like you're saying, we see, like, people are winning through playing into polarization. So it feels like, yeah, this big win to me. It's like an easy route. It's kind of weak to play into that. But anyway, part two of the thread he goes bullies come in, many forms, stand up to bullies and don't be a bully.
Political parties are big lame corporations. They're not worth your identity. Angels and demons are a delusion. Everyone is flawed and everyone is complicated. Courage is criticizing your in group. I really and there's three other Tweets in that thread but those two specifically regarding independent politics. I found perfect perfectly stayed,
perfectly stated the said it better
myself. Yeah, seriously and then you on reply and he said the whole notion of being left-wing or right-wing is silly. Almost no one initially agrees with the semi random collection of policy.
Associated with each Wing, they only support those policies after they join the left or right, mind tribe. So yeah, a lot of people, whether they are feel like they are 100% onto one side, couldn't name all of the policies under a party. It is genuinely just a tribe in an energy around something that you flock to in every situation. It's pretty
crazy. It's crazy yet. It's very, very human being. If you buy that humans are naturally tribal creatures, which we are ya?
And then there are all these social rewards around joining particular tribes. One of the best books around. This is the Righteous Mind by Jonathan haidt.
Have you read that book? I haven't. But you interviewed him.
I did. And so this book explains so much to me and many, many other people. He identified six, universal, human values, that cross every culture. Every society carrying fairness, Liberty, loyalty, Authority and sanctity. Hmm.
And he observed in this is where it gets fascinating. Okay, is that liberals home in on the first two values? Caring and fairness and conservatives home in on the last three? Loyalty, Authority and sanctity. Hmm. So we have different people are just much more responsive to different values, different notes or tones. Liberty gets construed differently in the Pro Bowl parties so we can leave it out for a minute. They were transporting very happy being like, yeah. We got our own value, but it
It's distributed in different ways. Yeah, so as an example, when you talk about the Border liberals or talk about the treatment of the migrants, that's like carrying fairness and then conservatives are like, why they're breaking the law. It's like loyalty Authority sanctity. So you have different people and also height observes that slightly bigger, proportion of people are conservative and naturally respond to those values. And the psychological makeup. It actually maps to certain qualities that we
Have appetite for novelty and your discussed reflex. If you're someone who just likes to try new things and having to experience all the time. You are naturally more liberal. If you have high discussed reflex, you are naturally more conservative you, you know, like think things are like unclean or Germany, or something along those lines. So those are just, you know, traits that personality that you have when you're born, you know, it turns out that
It's a very significant proportion of political beliefs are genetic in relationship. So this is one reason why when you talk about hating certain people for certain beliefs, to me, it really doesn't make much sense because it's like, wait. I thought my one of the things I'm supposed to not do is like hate people for things. They don't have any control over and if it turns out your political beliefs, have a significant genetic element, then I can't hate you for politics because
We probably don't have like a natural li like like higher low appetite for novelty or discussed reflex or threat. Sensitivity is another psychological quality. If you have high threat sensitivity, you tend to be more conservative. So this is all to say that when you have folks like Tim, Urban and Ilan, and so here's where it gets sticky.
Yeah, Jules. Okay,
is that. So, if you buy this, that you have
You that humans are innately tribal and that certain people respond to certain values more naturally than others. What I included rightly or wrongly is that there is like a tribe of people who are naturally less tribal. Yeah, and they tend to traffic highly on ideas and respond to a logic and reason or what we perceive to be logical reason.
A stat, you put out a lot is like of course right now. 62 percent of people believe the duopoly isn't working for Americans and it feels like the perfect decade for to act on this. But how do we make the messaging compelling knowing human nature? And knowing the tribalism aspect of there needs to be some tension in terms of like really to cause an uprising. Make this happen. How do you think the effective messaging should be
though? Yeah, so that, this is something that we're going to be spending a lot of time at the next.
Number of days, even yes to center around a message. That is comprehensible and catchy. Yep, and some will just like click and be like, okay. I know what these folks are about easy and I'm into it. I'm excited about it. So that's a particular challenge if you're going to try and do something that's big tent, third party, which is what we're trying to build here. There's a trap associated with where with what we're trying to build right now. It's called the mushy middle. Is that interesting?
And just Deuter mushy
middle. Is that like this size for this? Oh, that's hard for that. It's like, we're for getting along. Yeah, we're for logic and reason. Compromise fact-based governance, even if
it's not getting along, sometimes that messaging isn't complex. It is compelling for a lop is more Soviet. Like we are for logic and reason like, let's move away from this because it is not that.
Yeah, we're forgetting stuff done. And by the way, the system is not going to get anything done. Williford party launched with a particular set of principles.
And we're going to be re-examining the messaging around them over the next number of days to try and see if we can strike the right chord. So one possibility example would be like, you know, get corporate money out of politics. Yeah, because people instinctively sense that both major parties are kind of in the pocket of various companies. So that that has like a concrete Dimension. And it's like, okay, I kind of know what these folks are about. So that's one possibility. There are others
you.
Talked about this actually in your most recent podcast interview and I found it fascinating the way. So everything is becoming globalized, now, everything's becoming Universal and I feel like by the end of this decade, we're going to look at this u.s. Centric fighting power between people as just like Child's Play like, why did we waste so much time on that when there are much broader issues that we have to get into and they are worldwide, not just within a country. We need to focus like on our humanity and worldwide collaboration. And can you explain why this is? I want people to watch that episode because
I found it very important. So I interviewed Ian bremmer about his new book, The Power of Crisis and he's centered on three things that are massive issues facing the entire human race. Yep. So the first is future pandemics make sense. Second is climate change obvious. Yep, the third one less obvious to folks is disruptive Tech and cluding. A I need a very specific example that I think is what caught your attention which is that as soon as a country announces that it is cracked Quantum Computing that it renders every other
Countries attempts to safeguard the information Obsolete and so you could crash anyone's Financial system, you could do whatever you want. If you have Quantum Computing before anyone else. And so as soon as someone says, Hey, I've Quantum Computing then another country, you might say. Oh, I guess I have to Nuke you because you can essentially nuke me anytime you want now that you can crack every code, I have right now, Quantum, Computing is being developed in secret in various labs and what
He'd want us to do is have some kind of global agreement, where it's like, look, we're all working on Quantum Computing where ever gets there. Yep, like, you know, let's agree that we're not going to use it to try to take over the world and that's real. Now, you know, like China certainly is investing billions probably tens of billions on AI and the sort of effort. So
That was one thing that he described. You also described the fact that we have criminal actors or Rogue States or terrorist organizations who will have access to weaponized Ai and some cyber warfare tools that will potentially introduce like completely different vulnerabilities into systems where if you have countries you worry about another big country. It's like actually all you need is like a group of crazy people in this a
That can disrupt your infrastructure. So I mean, you know, it's obviously some pretty dark stuff that in projecting. It's all perfectly sensible though. And so he's he wants us to get ahead of it by encouraging Global, cooperation on, something like World data organization, which if you were really eagle-eyed yangyang, like you remember, I actually said that in one of the debates and I said that because Ian suggested to me, it is
Has your messaging around Ubi and I first came across your videos. I believe is like early 2019, right before you had been on Rogan. A lot of the messaging was targeted towards jobs with like manufacturing jobs truck drivers, cashiers ones, jobs that a lot of Americans have the vast majority of them. Do what I found. Interesting. So as a remind people, I like create a lot of content online around, Tekken digital culture because of this. I've been getting like Outreach from a lot of companies that have artificial intelligence.
As their Foundation within their products. And a lot of these are creative products, you know, and I knew a I was getting in, you know, more creative jobs, but it's actually like, wowed me. So whether it's copywriting of just putting in a few words that I want a piece of writing to be about and it feeding me back a two-page essay early about, I'm like
the new natural language AI engine is indistinguishable from Human writer faster, more powerful. It's crazy. You can have a text conversation.
Station with them and swear. It's a human being and it's just gonna get better.
And there's definitely uses to this Creative Tech, you know, copywriting is very tedious experience that my everyday life. That's super helpful. In terms of saving time when you're kind of conceptualizing, an idea. I'm not a super artistic person when it comes to drawing. So whether it's like maybe an idea I have for, yeah, like a creative purpose and I can type some words in it, can feed that back to me like my superpower. That's super powerful. So like to think of it all as Doom and Gloom, I'm definitely trying. Not to because there are, it's definitely Time Savers.
But thinking of how our relationship is going to move forward with it and especially with work in it. Like I as I've got more into the workforce and you have realized the importance of still having sent meetings within certain times every week to help me just stay on track of all these different things. Like how our relationship is going to change with this
stuff. Well, this is one of the things I talk about in the war normal people, where it's like, we're all now competing against machines and various ways and we've internalized, the market logic, even what you just described. Its. I can keep myself on track. I'm gonna like make sure that
Which I'm not sure, which I'm for on a human level, you know, like I'm like, you know, I want to kick ass as much as the next person but you have to realize it's like look, we're going to lose this particular race. And so like we have to get with the program and figure out what like the new world is going to look like. I mean, there's no time to waste but it does hinge upon us. We're storing a functioning political system mean that that's one of the things that's been, you know, it's been interesting for me. So like I ran for president had this very, very significant.
And I actually read the one normal people myself. Love that. Like, you know, we read it and the problems freaking real and like, you know, it's like, I don't know if people read the book and think like, oh, this is alarmist or whatnot. But, I mean, like half the stuffs unfolding in front of us. And then now I'm I feel like okay, like now I need to try and restore the political process to a point where we can actually get something done and I do see a path there me, I'm really pumped about it, but it does make it seem
Like the problems that I set out to solve. It's like look I'm going to put you aside for a minute because I can't solve you until I saw this other problem. So let me say this other problem not return to like that. The these huge problems that by the way are getting worse and one of them is that the way Tech. So, you know, I live in New York City and I remember ad agencies and yet these ad agencies have gotten completely like upended by Tech now because it's like, you know, I don't need you. You too.
Produce copy because it's produce 100 ads and then whichever one performs best Elevate that. So like you're out of the way and they will like this, you know, they these creative fields that are all just going to get usurped by Tech over time. Yeah. I mean, it's already happening.
So getting it we were just talking about how we need very simplistic concise messaging that people really understand easily and the independent political movement is deeply important to me. And I want people to fully understand what Ford represents because of this because
During the presidential election, you were strongly tied to Ubi and that was an easy mind connection for people like Andrew Yang. Ubi, you know, they learn the basics of Ubi as well. But I would love to go through like the six core principles of the Ford party, and you just give like a quick one to two sentence explanation of each because I think that will be really just like key messaging for people to have right now.
Sure beats do it, very happy do. So. No big picture. I think if I were to describe the the foreign party in one word, its
Uhn bought mean right now, like we are truly like the scrappy underdogs. And people are like, oh, like what? You know, like what do you do, when like the companies want to give you money? It's like no seen company wants to give us money. If you don't control the damn thing, you know, there's gonna pump place of dollars a day the other guys. So where are the genuine people powered political revolution that a lot of people know is necessary and that we want to deliver from outside the system to go in and change the
So summary Beyond bought but the principles you're describing Universal basic income fact-based governance, which is like look, we just need to figure out the bass lines are and then try and drive towards them and I became very excited about effective altruism, which is essentially like the same thing. Philanthropically. It's like looking to try and figure out what's going to make a difference and drive results. So looking for government that revolves around measurements, truly like you have to agree in a baseline human-centered economy, which is like we should be the point of the
Economy and like right now you see it where Financial measurements will continue getting better while we don't so that. So we could
use that up. I have one question about that two or three, three of six principles in when it comes to humans that our economy on the website. I think it's state is like human-centered capitalism. What do you say to people who kind of refute of like, those two can't live together in terms of being a capitalistic Society Being Human centered. How do you feel about that?
Um, you know, it's nomenclature.
Don't like, I think if you want to have our health and mental health and our kids success rate, be an important measurement for society, doesn't matter. In my mind. If you want to call it human, set an economy or human-centered capitalism a great. Yeah. Grayson tolerance, which is like look, we can disagree on various things and you know, it's okay, which I'm going to suggest. It's kind of important thing nowadays for sure. No, are you a modern and Effective Government so much right now is
just like stuff doesn't not working. Well, I mean, we can't find baby formula and like the richest country in the history of the world. Is that make any sense to anybody? You know, it's like let's and and right now. Like neither party really is responsible for trying to make things work better. They was like, yeah, you know, what do you do with the other side? And and you know, it is true like, you know, this point one party seems almost anti-government. But but the the Democratic party often seems more intent on messaging than performance, you know, I think there are a lot
Independents and Republicans are like look. If we're going to spend the money. We should try and spend it on stuff. That works. Yeah, of course and then bring home. What's number six?
Number six, ranked Choice voting and Open
primary? Oh my gosh. I'm freaking day,
the league. You buried. The
top three believe, look at that. So open primaries and ranked Choice voting so that anyone can compete. Anyone can run that you can vote for people of any party. Yep, to make it so that you have a truly dynamic.
Namek multi-party system. I think that we're in, for an historic realignment really quickly because people are so fed up. If it really does end up being Trump versus buying, which by the way, I think it will think Trump declares in October. So, you can take credit for the midterms. How boring and then early next year. Joe Biden says, I will stand to run against Trump because you see, is it as his god-given mission to defeat Trump and then 58% of Americans would be like, I cannot believe we're running these two dudes. Again, who are four years older? This cannot
Your best choice is a country of 330 million. Please. Someone, give me anyone else. And then the forward party will be there being like interesting. You want you want another Choice, like maybe we can help drum up some candidates. So I think this stuff's going to be relevant and have a ton of wind out its back, pretty freaking quick
100%. And then a question, I have for an effective in modern government. You made this point. I think, when you run like the H3,
It's maybe like two years ago. How exactly like, how many decades it's estimated that the government is behind on, like, how they utilize Tech. What was that number? I
just wonder where, where 26 years out of date, because we got rid of the office of Technology assessment in the mid-90s. And so this is, it was the save money good times in the US and yeah, that 83 million, you save Humanity.
Seriously, it's so dumb. So what? But that's again, an example of the fact that government doesn't need to perform well in a two-party system for people to hold on to power. No, it mean if we did everything right? This would still be a very, very difficult time. But if we don't come together meaningfully, it's going to be disastrous on a scale that I think most people are just now waking up to.
So as a reminder and ending with this,
The six core principles of the Ford party, the OG Universal basic income human-centered economy, ranked Choice, voting and open primaries and effective and modern government fact-based. Governance, Grayson tolerance. Love it. All think. It's important to
share. I will say that we're probably going to be messaging them and some snappier way. Yes, because they these six core principles. I think appeal to The Logical Among Us or going to try and get a couple of the illogical people on board. We need you.
Okay, love it. All right. Thanks Andrew. I love.
This conversation and thanks everyone for
listening. Thanks, Jules, Rock.
